Thoroughly Modern Milly

A tap break that sounds like a typewriter, a flapper’s bob as a battle cry, and a nine-day sprint that turned an understudy into a Broadway star—this is Thoroughly Modern Millie at full voltage. We revisit the show’s glittering craft and ask what it takes to keep its joy without repeating its harm.

We start with fresh theatre headlines—Alexandra Burke stepping into Chaka Khan, and Luke Evans strutting toward Rocky Horror—then pivot into Millie’s world. Jeanine Tesori’s buoyant score and Dick Scanlan’s lyrics conjure a 1920s New York brimming with ambition, reinvention, and jazz-age swagger. We unpack Sutton Foster’s legendary leap to the title role, celebrate the female-forward casting canvas, and relive choreography highlights like the typewriter-tap sequence that turns office bustle into percussive theatre.

Then we tackle the show’s fault line: a subplot built on racial caricature and human trafficking. We explore how licensing changes and thoughtful direction can remove the racial disguise, cast the brothers with dignity, and reposition the villain without cheap laughs. The goal is clear—honour the show’s heart while repairing what harms. Along the way, we decode the period references threaded through the songs—Brooks Brothers, coupon-clipping thrift, the bob’s quiet revolt, and makeup moving from taboo to mainstream—as proof that Millie is ultimately about social change.

If you love craft, care about context, and believe classics can evolve, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share with a theatre friend, and leave a review with your take: how would you reframe Millie for today’s stage?

End of MLL

Chapters

• 0:00 Banter, Set-Up, And Industry News
• 2:33 Casting Headlines And New Productions
• 4:25 Why Luke Evans As Frank N Furter Works
• 5:50 Introducing Thoroughly Modern Millie
• 7:35 Origins, Creators, And The 1920s Pastiche
• 10:45 Film Legacy And Female-Forward Roles
• 12:30 Premieres, Tours, And Mixed UK Reception
• 14:45 Sutton Foster’s Nine-Day Breakout
• 17:25 Production Memories And Choreography Insights
• 19:45 The Controversy: Stereotypes And Reframing
• 23:35 Licensing Fixes And Ethical Staging
• 26:25 Keeping The Heart While Removing Harm
• 28:30 What We Learned: Fashion, Jazz, And References
• 31:55 Songs, Characters, And Star Performances
• 34:45 Overtures, Future Ideas, And Wish List
• 36:55 What Would Sutton Do: The Nine-Day Challenge
• 40:45 Closing Laughs And Sign-Off

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:25

Hello and welcome to Musical Lyrical Lingo. We're your hosts, Tim.

SPEAKER_01: 0:29

And LJ. Today and every week we will be discussing musicals, but specifically what they taught us.

SPEAKER_00: 0:34

See, you laugh at me because I take a little pause at every time after you take after you give me the nod that we're recording. And then I always just take a moment because you're rattling your book and your paper, and nobody wants to hear this at the beginning of an episode. You want it tonight be a nice clear, clean.

SPEAKER_01: 0:54

I know it's because the EP's left us again, so we're having to do everything.

SPEAKER_00: 0:59

Sure, no better woman for a day.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01

But I know, but I also did feel like your dad there, like I was conducting you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05

You do give me the wee head nod. Go. I'm like, okay, but I'm just gonna wait until we've got radio silence.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13

Okay. Just diva-esque.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16

Don't go there. We all know who the diva is in this relationship. We've we've had it out on the podcast before. The listeners have had their say. Okay. Do you think they're up their their opinion of us has changed three seasons in?

SPEAKER_01: 1:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34

As in I'm now the diva. They voted you, Lauren, from what? I'm gonna put it out again. Don't do it. Uh talking of D.Va, and I love this girl, I love her to pieces. Alexandra Burke is going to be playing Shaka Khan in the musical biodrama I Am Every Woman the Musical. And it's to receive its world premiere at the Peacock Theatre in London in March next year. And this is a what random. Do you not think it's random? I don't think so. I mean Shaka Khan has lots of really I mean, why why Tina Turner not Shaka Khan? Okay. And you've got had the Dumb Donna Summers Donna Summer musical and Okay. I mean, I'm not going, oh, why are you doing a musical on Shaka Khan? I think she'll have as I mean, all of those all of those divas of the time, they all have a story. And you don't realise it until it, you know, it's presented to you. You don't know what Yeah, maybe that's it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:40

I'm just not I'm actually just don't know anything about her back.

SPEAKER_00: 2:43

And it seems like it's going to be a big deal. Like there's a website already up and running. It looks properly.

SPEAKER_01: 2:49

Well, yes, and I think Alexandra Bark is very talented, and she's probably not going to put her name to something that doesn't have a good solid script.

SPEAKER_00: 2:59

Yeah. I think, and I she will be brilliant. So I'm delighted for her. Um, also, Midnight, the musical casting has been announced for it. This bold new musical created by Toddrick Hall, which premieres from the 11th to the 15th of November. Oh, hold on, that's already been uh at Saddler's Wells. It's described as a sweeping story of love conflict and the search of understanding. But the reason it uh pricked my attention was that they announced that Broadway and West End stars Rachel Tucker and Ayanna George are to join the cast.

SPEAKER_02: 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 3:41

But that's already happened in Saddler's Wells. So let's hope that there's lots of wee videos out there of Tucker with the T doing her thing.

SPEAKER_01: 3:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 3:48

Last but not least, very exciting, Luke Evans.

SPEAKER_01: 3:52

Yeah, I love him.

SPEAKER_00: 3:53

Of movie fame will be making his Broadway debut in Rocky Horror.

SPEAKER_01: 3:59

Yeah, no, that I think that's a great choice.

SPEAKER_00: 4:01

This is class.

SPEAKER_01: 4:02

I think that's a great choice.

SPEAKER_00: 4:03

He's going to be playing Frankenfurder in Sam Pinkleton's revival at the roundabout theatre on the 26th of March with the official opening night build for the 23rd of April.

SPEAKER_01: 4:16

I think he'll be great.

SPEAKER_00: 4:18

I agree. I think he'll be wonderful. I want to see him do more musicals.

SPEAKER_01: 4:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 4:22

And he loves musical theatre. Like love, love, loves it. But he hasn't done very much other than gased on, really.

SPEAKER_01: 4:29

Yeah, did he do something else? Did he? Like concert wise?

SPEAKER_00: 4:33

Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 4:35

Speaking of concert.

SPEAKER_00: 4:36

What?

SPEAKER_01: 4:37

A concert that came out last year and that we got very excited about.

SPEAKER_00: 4:41

Oh, you're talking about something rotten.

SPEAKER_01: 4:42

Something rotten. Again, it's a limited run. It does have your not mate in it.

SPEAKER_00: 4:47

I just want Jason Munford.

SPEAKER_01: 4:49

But again, again, again, I'm hoping that it's a limited run. At least it's a performance. At least it's the actual musical.

SPEAKER_00: 4:55

Yeah. It might get extended.

SPEAKER_01: 4:58

It might get extended.

SPEAKER_00: 4:59

When's it opening? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01: 5:01

Can't remember the dates. I'm so sorry. Um. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:06

We all know who takes their musical theatre uh news. Well, that's your domain, mister. I don't want to do. I mean, what more do you want me to do?

SPEAKER_01: 5:15

Don't go there, Mister. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 5:21

If it gave you more musical theatre news, we'd be here all night.

SPEAKER_01: 5:25

Oh, I know. That was great. That was good. No, I don't.

SPEAKER_00: 5:30

No, I'm not giving you any more music.

SPEAKER_01: 5:31

Okay, what are we doing this week? And do you want to do a little dance for us?

SPEAKER_00: 5:34

No.

SPEAKER_01: 5:34

No, are you okay? I thought you would have been dancing for joy.

SPEAKER_00: 5:38

Um, Akhmatap days are are behind me.

SPEAKER_01: 5:42

No, they're not.

SPEAKER_00: 5:43

They are. They are very much so.

SPEAKER_01: 5:45

Okay. Well, we're doing one of your faves.

SPEAKER_00: 5:47

Yeah, I love this musical, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 5:48

Yeah. Thoroughly modern Millie.

SPEAKER_00: 5:51

Yeah, that's what they sometimes call me, to be fair. What?

SPEAKER_01: 5:59

I learned loads because I didn't really know this musical. Did you? How'd you not know this musical? As in that was my learning, was actually listening to this musical.

SPEAKER_00: 6:08

How have you not listened to it already?

SPEAKER_01: 6:10

I've listened, but I probably I didn't really, I didn't know the story.

SPEAKER_00: 6:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 6:15

I haven't watched the film or anything.

SPEAKER_00: 6:17

I haven't watched the film either, to be fair. But I have done the show. I've choreographed it. Yeah, and I learned an awful lot at the time, to be honest, just because it it it in itself is teaching and talking about change and like you know, you know, a period of time when things did change and fashions changed and you know, ideals changed and all of that. So it was quite exciting and and good learning experience at the time. Oh my goodness, I mean I can't even fathom how many years ago I worked on this show, but it was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01: 6:55

It must have been like quite close to whenever it first came out, then was it?

SPEAKER_00: 6:58

Fuck give over.

SPEAKER_01: 7:01

Okay. Anyway, not 1967. Honest to goodness.

SPEAKER_00: 7:05

Are you just here to like give me a hard time tonight in this episode?

SPEAKER_01: 7:10

No, I mean like whenever it came to the UK, it was like 2005.

SPEAKER_00: 7:14

Don't you start?

SPEAKER_01: 7:16

Okay, okay. Well, um, for anybody that doesn't know like me, it is based on the 1967 musical um starring Julie Andrews. Um and it is an American musical, romantic comedy. It was based on Chrysanthemum?

SPEAKER_00: 7:32

Chrysanthemum.

SPEAKER_01: 7:33

Okay, which opened in London in 1956.

SPEAKER_00: 7:36

And that was a British musical.

SPEAKER_01: 7:38

Mm-hmm. So the music is so it's a 2000 musical, um, even though the film was 1967. The music is by Jeannie Tesserie.

SPEAKER_00: 7:47

Yep, the most prolific and honoured female theatrical composer in history with five Broadway musicals and six Tony nominations. So she does two Tony Awards, she is five Grammy Award nominations.

SPEAKER_01: 8:00

Yeah, she's great. Yeah. So she's for Caroliner Change, yeah, Fun Home, and Kimberly Akimbo.

SPEAKER_00: 8:09

Akimbo. Akimbo. And she also was Shrek.

SPEAKER_01: 8:11

Shrek as well. I forgot about Shrek. She, which is because those three that I've mentioned, Bard Shrek, they all have like heart to them.

SPEAKER_00: 8:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:21

Well, Shrek obviously has a bit of heart to it as well.

SPEAKER_00: 8:24

Well, a bit heavy.

SPEAKER_01: 8:25

And they're a bit heavy. Well, fairly modern Millie it isn't, so this is quite like a light one. Lyrics are by Dick Scallon.

SPEAKER_03: 8:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:33

And book by Richard Morris as well as Dick Scallon.

SPEAKER_00: 8:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:37

Like I said, yeah, it's a 2000 musical.

SPEAKER_00: 8:40

Yeah. It tells the story of a small town girl, Millie Dilmont, who arrives in New York City determined to leave her curls behind and become a modern. To this end, she has a haircut, buys flapper dresses, and enrolls in a stenography, which is just shorthand school. That's what I kind of didn't know what stenography was or what a stenographer was. She takes a room with a milvoyant Mrs. Mears, who is secretly targeting targeting orphaned women to sell on a slave labour. Yes, there are things to talk about in this musical. Yes. Into this setup walks Miss Dorothy Brown, a naive young orphan who wishes to become an actress. Dorothy and Millie become friends, and Millie explains her true aim in coming to New York, which is to find work as a secretary, fall in love with her boss, and then marry him.

SPEAKER_01: 9:35

Yeah, 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 9:38

It is in style a comic comic pastiche, really.

SPEAKER_01: 9:44

Yeah, and this is what I learned as well, like the meaning of that. So, so even though obviously the film was 1967, it's set in the 1920s with the music of the musical, it aims to capture that 1920s feel, but it's using original score with a much later date.

SPEAKER_00: 10:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:04

So I didn't know that that there was an actual word for it.

SPEAKER_00: 10:07

Which is really clever and also really fun to work on on stage. Do you know what I mean? Because you can have great fun with pastiche. Do you know what I mean? The film that you've mentioned a couple of times, 1986, it won the Academy Award for Music and was nominated for six others. Julie Andrews, as you said, starred as Millie Dilmount, and she had recently appeared in Mary Poppins and Sound of Music, so she was a big international movie star and was sure to draw in the crowds to this new movie. However, it was hard to say which of the ladies came out ahead in the end, due to it being such a strong lineup and such strong backing performers, which was performances which were delivered by Carol Channing and Beatrice Lily.

SPEAKER_01: 10:56

Yeah. You know, so it was a big male heavy, which is which is always lovely to see. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:03

It's a great musical for females.

SPEAKER_01: 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:07

There's so many good female parts on it.

SPEAKER_01: 11:09

Yeah, and yeah, that's it. There's not one part that's a bit weaker, you know, there, and they've all got really, really good songs.

SPEAKER_00: 11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

It first opened in 2000 in La Jolla Playhouse, in which is in San Diego. Um La Jolla is a most beautiful area. Um yes. Then we had 2002 Broadway, 2003 US tour. It was in West End in 2003, and then UK tour 2005, and then revived for another tour in 2017, and kind of hasn't really been hasn't really been right.

SPEAKER_00: 11:43

And I think we will probably talk about why maybe it isn't, it doesn't get outings very often. And I certainly would and it's I find I feel it's such a shame because it's such a great like there's so many good bits to this musical, but I think nowadays, like I just don't think you could do 30 modern melee.

SPEAKER_01: 12:03

Well, I've got some suggestions on maybe how some directors have tried to get around it.

SPEAKER_00: 12:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 12:07

So we'll we'll discuss that. But I suppose the biggest thing we should mention is this show launched Sutton Foster.

SPEAKER_00: 12:14

Indeed. And the story to launching Sutton Foster is quite incredible. So, right back to this the workshops that went on in 1999, uh, and then the outer town tryouts and things like that, Kristen Chennewith was involved in the cast as Millie Dilmount. Now, despite nurturing the role throughout the workshops, she then did not continue with the role of Millie in order to pursue her own sitcoms. So she got offered a part in I think it was pushing daisies. I think you're right, and that was too big of an opportunity for her. So she left. She was replaced by Erin Delee, but prior to public previews, Sutton Foster, who was her understudy, was then chosen to assume the title role, and that was a move that then propelled her to start him.

SPEAKER_01: 13:11

Yeah. Crazy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 13:13

What is also crazy is she only had nine days before the first preview to prepare to open as Millie.

SPEAKER_01: 13:19

Yeah. Like just usually like how super talented she is.

SPEAKER_00: 13:24

Like completely, completely amazing, it was meant to be, wasn't it? But like as big Broadway stars, that story is pretty awesome. Yeah. For Sutton, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 13:35

Whenever you think of early days, Sutton, I suppose because of you think of her in the in the Millie sort of outfit. But it's crazy that that was like that was that was her big brick.

SPEAKER_00: 13:47

And like to sing those songs, like she couldn't have had a better role to showcase herself for the first time. True. You know, like what a strong character, what really strong songs, yeah. Like incredible, yeah, absolutely incredible. And so exciting. Isn't it great when like you know there are like call-up stories like that? Okay, you're on kids, it's like proper 42nd Street in real life.

SPEAKER_01: 14:19

42nd Street, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 14:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:21

Just shows you that like if you're meant to get the lead, you you will, because it'll come up.

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

And listen, like the original Broadway production won six Tonies and five drama desk awards, including Best Musical at both ceremonies, and Sutton Foster won Best Actress in a musical in the world.

SPEAKER_01: 14:40

Best London actress, yeah. Crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 14:42

Yeah, class. Um, like West End production, it opened in Shaftesbury Theatre, and that was due to the success of the original Broadway production. The original creative team, which included director Michael Mayer, who also then went on to direct Spring Awakening, and choreographer Rob Ashford, they were reunited to stage the show in London, and UK TV personality and Malda Holden starred in the title role with when you hear this for a supporting cast, Maureen Lippman and Marty Webb, alternated Mrs. Mears. That's right. And then when Marty Webb left Thirty Mother Millie because she was cast in Andrew Lloyd Webber's Tell Me on a Sunday. Oh who came in to play Mrs. Mears? But Anita Dobson.

SPEAKER_02: 15:39

Ah, what wonderful.

SPEAKER_00: 15:41

Like amazing. But despite positive reviews and booking periods being extended to January 2005, so it opened in 2003, October 2003. It extended to 2005. It did fail to catch the UK public's attention and closed in June 2004.

SPEAKER_01: 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:01

I I think it's I would never close that show.

SPEAKER_01: 16:04

You would never close that show.

SPEAKER_00: 16:05

No.

SPEAKER_01: 16:06

Well, tell us about like you're working on a 10.

SPEAKER_00: 16:09

Oh well, before I do that, do you know Whippy Goldberg's involvement?

SPEAKER_01: 16:14

No.

SPEAKER_00: 16:15

So Whippy Goldberg is credited as one of the producers. Oh the Tony Wynn for Best Musical in 2002 earned Whippy Goldberg her tea in her egot status.

SPEAKER_01: 16:34

That's amazing. I did not know that. Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 16:39

Isn't that a cool fact?

SPEAKER_01: 16:41

I wonder how why she got on board. I'm always intrigued.

SPEAKER_00: 16:45

Yeah, I know people's yeah, it's a bit like um you know, Oprah Winfrey is so heavily involved in like colour purple. Yeah. But then she was in the film, wasn't she? Yeah. Interesting. So my involvement was like, so I would you know I started choreographing when I was like 16, but I would have choreographed for, you know, companies that I was involved in myself or, you know, had links to. And it that was really my that my stumping ground, like my learning ground. And 30 Modern Millie was the first time that company that I had nothing to do with contacted me and asked me if I'd be interested in coming to choreograph for them. So it was a it was really very much the first time I'd stepped out of any comfort zone or comfort blanket that I had. So it was a big deal for me. And for choreography, Thurly Modern Millie is a big show, like really big, and there was tap, and I was going to a company that hadn't tapped before and didn't know how to tap, and it was really very exciting. And the number, the tap number in Thorly Modern Millie is when you know they're writing a the letter.

SPEAKER_01: 18:03

The letter.

SPEAKER_00: 18:04

So and like it was really fun to play about with using your feet to make the sounds of the typewriter. The typewriter, yeah. And then you've obviously got forget about the boy, which was a big stump and tap number. But it was really fun, and it you know, it was something I was really proud of because it was the first time I kind of put myself out there, and from there then, you know, I continue to work with that company, and then I, you know, other big, you know, b big companies then got to know of me and my work, and then that's kind of where I how I got to where I am now, I think. It's amazing. Yeah, it's really lovely. Like it is so 30 Modern Millie is a really important show to me, and it's quite interesting. I was covering some musical theatre classes last night, and uh I was working with one of the students who's preparing for her grade eight musical theatre exam. And one of the numbers that she's doing in her program is Forget About the Boy uh from Thoroughly Modern Millie, and I was like, oh my goodness, this is such an like an important musical for me. And I was like, I do podcasts, and she was like, I know I listened to it. I was like, oh my goodness, you listen to the podcast, and I was like, Well, listen up because Thorly Modern, we're gonna talk about Thorly Molly, Modern Millie in the next couple of weeks, so yeah, it's funny how it just like connects people, but no, it was really important for me. But I also remember absolutely poo-pooing myself at the time, going, Oh my goodness, this is a big deal. I have a lot to do here, this is hard work.

SPEAKER_01: 19:42

At the time, were you aware of the controversial sort of topic that I've got to do?

SPEAKER_00: 19:47

No, and you know what's really sad, and I like in in researching this, I went, oh my goodness, like this, like there are parts of like it was of his day, of its day, but I just go, oh my goodness, like some of the plot points aren't acceptable. But at the time, I don't know if it was because I was just like so you were just all I was thinking was the huge project I had ahead of me. Yeah, that I didn't, you know, fully go, oh gosh, hold on a minute. That's not true.

SPEAKER_01: 20:30

And that's what I was just wondering. Was there a like creative choice to change the controversy?

SPEAKER_00: 20:37

No, no, so it was it was done sort of how so like it it has like thoroughly modern really has since become a popular it had become a popular choice for like high schools, but then it started to garner controversy over racial stereotyping of its Asian characters, and it has been described as a piece that has that walks a fine line between being entertaining and highly offensive. So the subplot of the show is one in which Mrs. Mears, a white woman, disguises herself as a Chinese woman and uh runs uh white slavery ring with the assistance of two recently Chinese male immigrants, Ching Ho and Bung Fu. Yeah, uh played and plays on the differences between satire and racism. Yes now actually in saying that I'm not so sure we had our Mrs. Mayors disguised as a Chinese woman.

SPEAKER_01: 21:37

Okay, yeah. So that's what I was gonna say. There's that's the con that's the main controversy, is the the yellow face and the traffic on the face, no. So there's there's been lots of obviously productions of it as and maybe drama productions, and a lot of ways people have tried to get around that controversy is just keeping Qing Ho and Bang Fu um speak and sing only in their native language, which kind of doesn't mock it, but just let allowing them to show that they are so culturally different different and they're almost they don't know what they're doing because this woman is only speaking to them in English and they don't understand, so there's people have got around it that way. Also, people have tried to say about you know, it's not white slavery, it's maybe like human trafficking and making fun of that is really dark and violent. So people are trying to change it. It's all it's all very, isn't it? So they have changed a bit of the license in Musical Theatre International, and many directors offer solutions with this controversial material, particularly for high schools and regional theatres.

SPEAKER_00: 22:48

Yeah, because you can get it, like you can get the junior versions. Yes. I would love to know what's been scripted in those junior versions.

SPEAKER_01: 22:57

Yeah, so she is no longer disguised as a Chinese woman. The director can choose a non-racial, non-offensive stereotype for her field actress persona.

SPEAKER_03: 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:08

Um so they uh give some examples, such as she could be an aging um southern belle.

SPEAKER_03: 23:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 23:15

Um with a a thick comedic accent.

SPEAKER_00: 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:19

Um, or she could be But is she still trafficking orphans? Well, there's there's there's that part as well. Like, how do you get around that sort of main thing? It's they they do say this is all in the you know information that they give you. The goal is to keep the necessary plot point that she failed as an actress and she's using these not so good skills in an over-the-top stagy disguise to evade police. So then you remove the racism part. And then I think there is a part about the the traffic and but yeah, I think it's one of those ones is a very fine line. How do you do it now without with and trying to just get cheap laughs?

SPEAKER_00: 24:04

And that's a thing for a subplot. It's such a shame that a subplot it does, and I think it does rightfully so, reduce the number of peop you know, people willing to do it or to revive it.

SPEAKER_01: 24:19

Yeah, I think they they've said um trying to reframe Ching Ho and Bung Fu's characters. Yeah. This strategy focuses on enhancing the dignity and anti-racist subtext of the brothers by them not knowing what is going on and making sure that they're cast as Asian actors and making sure that the brothers are played it with truth and integrity. The production should also clearly contrast the racial absurdity of her act. Yeah. I really play the fact that she is being, you know, insane and not the brothers, so it should never be any laughs from then and almost turn them into heroes.

SPEAKER_00: 24:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:58

So I think but at what point then are you completely changing that subplot?

SPEAKER_00: 25:03

Yeah, but I know I but it it it's a subplot, that's the thing. Like it is a subplot. Like the main story is Millie Dilmont like coming to NYC and like completely changing flourishing because she's embraced this new lifestyle and you know, all of that kind of that love triangle, though it's not really a love triangle, of she is intent on Marion Rich and she's you know what's her name, her her boss, but then meeting Jimmy and then falling in love with Jimmy, and you know, then Dorothy, Dorothy falling for her boss, and you know, I think that's enough. However, Mrs. Mears is a brilliant character, like you would want to keep that failed actress kind of character. It's just about how do you then how do you write her back into the show, which isn't this, you know, underlying racist. You know, you could get rid of the racism by just having her as a failed actress with like, you know, a scornful character, but you just need to have something that she's maybe she's after Dorothy's money or something, you know, like make Dorothy.

SPEAKER_01: 26:21

Yeah, he could do something.

SPEAKER_00: 26:25

I would love them to do a rewrite to be quite honest with you.

SPEAKER_01: 26:27

I think it probably needs it, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 26:29

Because there's so much good about the show that it's such a shame that nobody does the show anymore because of this subplot.

SPEAKER_02: 26:35

Yeah, yeah. And Mrs.

SPEAKER_00: 26:37

Mears is a great character, and her number that she sings about, you know, when she was an actress is so good.

SPEAKER_02: 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:44

But just get rid of the the the traffic in the world.

SPEAKER_01: 26:48

Yeah, yeah, I like to just get rid of that in the racism. Um, some people have said as well that you know, in directors' notes that they can include or deliver a pre-show announcement and contextualise the the production. Of course, so and also address that it's historical setting and acknowledge the controversy. Um, and also if you're doing it for a student production, you know, in high school or something, use it as a way to educate and talk about the themes of racism and stereotyping and human trafficking and get local you know charities who support those in and and have those conversations. So something good could come of it. So 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 27:24

And I suppose you have to be and I yeah, I am one of these people. Like there are so many of the golden age musicals that have similar issues. Yes, and I think I think I think it is wrong to just forget about them and never show that like I still think South Pacific's the most wonderful musical. I still think it's a great show to do. Do you no longer do South Pacific because of the racial tones in it? You know, I think it's what you've just said about that pre-show announcement is important. We live in such a woke society now that you know people are like, no, you can't do it. And it's like, but hold on a wee minute, you know, but how can we do this and how can we also highlight that we understand that it was wrong?

SPEAKER_01: 28:17

So but and learn from it, and by making sure Mrs. Mears is not being racist and she changed her character completely and still keep part not the slave trade type thing going on, yeah, but maybe is it that she's like stealing money from people and she's getting them?

SPEAKER_00: 28:35

She's a crook.

SPEAKER_01: 28:36

Yeah, you change it like that, and then say, and the reason why this is changed is because whenever this was originally done and still address it, yeah. You know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:45

What did we learn apart from everything that we've just thought about?

SPEAKER_01: 28:49

Everything everything there in not for the life of me, yeah, there is the mention of brother Brooks, which is probably a reference to Brooks Brothers, who were the USA luxury clothing brand.

SPEAKER_00: 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:01

So I learned that.

SPEAKER_00: 29:02

There was a lot of fashion. I was like, went over my head at the time. It was yeah. In thoroughly modern Millie, uh they sing, they think it's odd in Sodom and Gomorrah. So in the Old Testament, Sodom, you would know this maybe. I didn't know this. Sodom and Gomorrah Gomorrah Gomorrah Gomorrah were two cities in ancient times that were completely destroyed by God due to their lust and poor treatment of visiting angels. Have I got that partially correct? In the song, the women say that traditional people think their new styles, because it's all about the new style, the flapper dresses, the bobbed hair, they think that their new styles are just as promiscuous and lost from faith as the cities were thousands of years ago. So that's just the reference to that. They sing about raise your skirts and bob your hair. Probably the biggest association with the 1920s, the new hair, the dress styles captivated the modern world as they became popular due to their freeing nature and boyish look with the revolution. It was the revolution of the decade, departing from the previous decades of women having to wear big skirts with many umber undergarments and longer hair that was always kept up.

SPEAKER_01: 30:24

Yeah. So that Bob and hair stopped that need for time spent on appearance, I suppose, like in that way, because there was a lot of time spent on appearance.

SPEAKER_00: 30:35

I think the bob tear cuts and me. Like I really like a bob tear cut. And uh did you have a bob once upon a time?

SPEAKER_01: 30:41

Yeah, I still kind of go for it's at the stage where needs cut, you know, it's kind of shorter at the back and longer at the front, yeah, like that. Raising hem lines also entering the workforce and just trying to become more modern, and that obviously the raisin hem lines and the bob also meant that you were getting ready for work quicker and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00: 30:59

Yeah, they also sing about painting lips and pencil lining your brow uh now is quite respectable. So before the jazz age, lipstick and other pieces of makeup were correlated with prostitutes instead of fashionable women. However, once the 1920s rolled in and brought new ideas of style and beauty, elaborate makeup became more respectable and started to become pro and started to be common products most modern women owned, setting a trend that lasted forever.

SPEAKER_02: 31:30

Yeah. Forever.

SPEAKER_00: 31:32

Bands are getting jazzier, the 1920s was most famously coined as that jazz age because during this time jazz music was born and took over the nation, quite a difference from the ballroom songs of before.

SPEAKER_01: 31:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:48

There you go.

SPEAKER_01: 31:49

Yeah, I kind of learned as well just about how much Millie wanted one thing, and then out of nowhere, she's kind of and through her I want song, gimme gimme, though I keep always wanting to say gimme gimme gimme because of that TV show.

SPEAKER_00: 32:06

Yeah. Gimme gimme that thing called law. I could be a sudden foster impersonator.

SPEAKER_01: 32:14

I do it, gimme. So classic I want song, but with a twist. Um, she does start believing that she wants the money and the status, and it's kind of how the whole thing's been going until she realizes that she's truly in love with Jimmy and like everything has been a facade.

SPEAKER_00: 32:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:32

And it's almost that realization moment as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 32:36

But that moment in the show when he turns the corner and he meets her for the first time, and it's like ding. I actually think in the musical, like there's a ding.

SPEAKER_01: 32:44

Oh, that's what I mean. That pasta is like so ding. Uh yeah, okay, cute.

SPEAKER_00: 32:50

Yeah, um really cute.

SPEAKER_01: 32:52

And also from there, like I said, you know, she had these big plans and this modern plan of I'm just gonna fall in love with my boss. Yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not gonna fall in love for love. I'm going to fall in love because that's because he's he's gonna be rich, and he's gonna provide for me, and that's gonna be gonna be perfect, and then she does embrace a more emotional desire.

SPEAKER_00: 33:13

Yeah, you know, she's a brain character, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:16

She is cute, like, and I suppose she could have a lot of I suppose a bit like Adelaide as well, isn't it? She could like get a really comedic actress for that role and just really go to the extreme with it.

SPEAKER_00: 33:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I kind of feel that's what we did with the reduction I was in. Like the actress who played Millie is has funny bones, like and she was funny and she brought the comedy as well as the vocals. Um, in How the Other Half Lives, which is Miss Dorothy's uh song, she sings, I'll take the oyster and the pearl, pinching pennies and clipping coupons. Yes, and in 1922, the coupon clipping well, it was like the coupon clipping era, like it was a good way of saving mummy.

SPEAKER_01: 34:04

I love a coupon clip. You love a coupon, don't you?

SPEAKER_00: 34:08

I can't be bothered. I honest to goodness can't be bothered.

SPEAKER_01: 34:12

Oh, I am in every sort of like sign up for our loyalty club, like do this. I love it.

SPEAKER_00: 34:18

But you have to be a really organized person to keep on top of your coupons, and I'm not organized enough. So a coupon that comes and goes, and I've missed the deadline. Do you know what I mean? Like it's pointless.

SPEAKER_01: 34:31

I would love to be, and I used to get addicted to watching those programs, like Stream Couponers in America, where they literally like buy all of this stuff, and then at the end of it, they're like, Okay, you're a thousand pound shop or a thousand dollar shop. Is now a penny.

SPEAKER_03: 34:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:46

Like, I love that. Well, my best thing is go to Alban get two pounds off sweets. I'm like, yes, I've won a life.

SPEAKER_00: 34:53

You're so funny. I love now that the bet the closest I get to coupon clipping is like the stamps you get in your your your coffee card. Do you know what I mean? And I'm like, yeah, free coffee. That's as close as I get to coupon clipping, let me tell you. No, no, I'm not that old. How dare you? She also sings a belitze class. I long to pass. Maximilian Delphini Delphinous Delphinius Belitz, 1852. That's so wrong pronunciation to 1921, was a linguistic and the founder of the Belitz language schools.

SPEAKER_03: 35:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 35:39

So it was a global education company founded in 1878, known for a language learning method that I thought this was interesting that emphasizes immersion and conversation from day one rather than the traditional grammar translation.

SPEAKER_01: 35:55

That's what I'm currently doing in my art classes.

SPEAKER_00: 36:00

There you go. She also sings about fair weather friends. What's a fair weather friend?

SPEAKER_01: 36:05

Like a friend that's only there whenever the weather's good.

SPEAKER_00: 36:09

Person who who stops being a friend in times of difficulty. Yeah, so when the weather's good. Yeah. The opposite is what's the opposite of a fair weather friend? Stormy weather friend. It's also mentioned in the number.

SPEAKER_02: 36:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 36:25

Uh They Don't Know. Mrs. Mears song. Do you want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_01: 36:30

Yeah, I don't have anything from it. But go for it.

SPEAKER_00: 36:32

What do you have from?

SPEAKER_01: 36:33

No, I don't.

SPEAKER_00: 36:34

You don't?

SPEAKER_01: 36:35

No, that's me.

SPEAKER_00: 36:36

So Mrs. Mears, as I said, she she longs to be back in our actress days. Hilarious. The song is brilliant. She sings They Don't Know, I'm Hotter News than Deuce, Helen Hayes, Bernhardt, all in one. So do you know who these people were?

SPEAKER_01: 36:54

No. Tell me.

SPEAKER_00: 36:55

Deuce or D-U-S-E, I think. Eleonora. Eleanora. Yeah, Eleanora. Eleanora. Deuce was an Italian actress, best known for her tragic roles, particularly in plays by Ibsen, your mate.

SPEAKER_01: 37:11

I love Ibsen.

SPEAKER_00: 37:12

Lauren loved Henrik Ibsen in school, and he drove me to drink.

SPEAKER_03: 37:20

At the age of 16. At the age of 16.

SPEAKER_00: 37:24

I didn't mind. It's all for entertainment. But let's just say, was he Caucasian Chuck Circle? That's a good one. Oh, that bloody awful play that we had to go and watch. And I was like, this is four hours of my life. I'll never go. It was a long play. It was terrible. It was a long play, too.

SPEAKER_01: 37:42

That was terrible. And I did write and remember we had to write a review. Like I said, um Henrik Ibsen is glad he's a ghost, so he didn't have to suffer this ghostly production.

SPEAKER_00: 37:51

You missed a trick. I'm telling you, I have no idea why you didn't become a theatre critic.

SPEAKER_01: 37:56

Because I'm terrible at grammar.

SPEAKER_00: 37:58

Okay. Fair. Okay. Helen Hayes, she mentioned she was an American actress. I thought she was quite interesting, often referred to as the first lady of American theatre. She was the second person and the first woman to win an egot.

SPEAKER_01: 38:18

And why do we not know her anymore?

SPEAKER_00: 38:21

I know. And isn't it isn't it interesting in the one episode we've mentioned the egot status twice?

SPEAKER_01: 38:27

See how we do that.

SPEAKER_00: 38:28

What a link to thoroughly modern Millie the egot has. Who would have thought? And then Sarah Burn Bernhard, French actress, best known for her portrayal of Cordelia in King Lear.

SPEAKER_01: 38:39

I thought that's what I thought I knew that actually. Very cute.

SPEAKER_00: 38:46

What do I need with love? I want it. She sings. No, sorry. Jimmy sings. I'm a Joe with just one aim. Every night to state a different dame.

SPEAKER_01: 39:00

Every night I'm with a different dame.

SPEAKER_00: 39:02

Every night to date a different dame. Sorry, a g uh No no no, it's just what I heard. But Joe and Dame, two common slang terms in the 1920s to refer to man and woman. So the men were known as Joes and the women. That's self-explanatory, the women bit. But Joe.

SPEAKER_02: 39:22

Very good.

SPEAKER_00: 39:24

And Jimmy was singing that. Joe and Jimmy. Joe and Jimmy. I love it. What are you a knee with love? I know they what I yeah, give me palpitations at the time. But there's like a dance number or they like go to the club they go to a club and the title of that song is The Nutty Cracker Suite.

SPEAKER_01: 39:48

Oh really?

SPEAKER_00: 39:49

I thought that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01: 39:50

Yeah, that's cute.

SPEAKER_00: 39:51

Yeah. And then and then a rumble or fight breaks out and they end up in pr they end up locked up.

SPEAKER_01: 39:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:58

And then that's when he sings about falling for Millie.

SPEAKER_01: 40:04

He loves her.

SPEAKER_00: 40:05

Yeah. I turned the corner.

SPEAKER_01: 40:10

There we go. Yeah. Do you um have any standardations?

SPEAKER_00: 40:14

It the show, Sutton Foster. Not for the life of me. Jimmy. Oh Jimmy. Or Forget About that boy. Or gimme, gimme a thing called I need it. Okay. Also, can we take a moment just to remember Gavin Creel?

SPEAKER_02: 40:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:36

Because Gavin Creel played the original Jimmy in Broadway.

SPEAKER_02: 40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:40

And he on the cast recording is just beautiful.

SPEAKER_02: 40:45

Yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_00: 40:47

What do I need with love? His voice just like so. And I think that was the first time I came across him. And I was when I say I was obsessed with that cast recording, I was obsessed. And I was obsessed with him and his voice, and that I turned the corner and what do I need with love?

SPEAKER_01: 41:10

Yeah, he his voice is lovely. Another one where I quite like the overture.

SPEAKER_00: 41:15

I know. Plume and a hair. Two in a row. Two episodes in a row. Two in a row. Am I slowly but surely turning you?

SPEAKER_01: 41:21

I think you must be.

SPEAKER_00: 41:22

Does this mean that we can do our top ten um overtures soon?

SPEAKER_01: 41:27

Next year, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:28

Soon. Next year. Well I suppose it's next. Well, I suppose Christmas is really. Oh, would it be an idea to do it to open our season four?

SPEAKER_01: 41:39

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00: 41:39

Open of a new season.

SPEAKER_01: 41:41

Already planned.

SPEAKER_00: 41:42

Oh, this is ridiculous. We normally plan our next season of where we won't mold wine and a mince pie.

SPEAKER_01: 41:48

No, there we go. But we can still do that now. We just don't have to talk shop. Yes, I do like Forget About the Boy, and I do like Jimmy.

SPEAKER_00: 41:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:56

So yeah, they're good songs. Yeah, maybe a little bit of a rewrite or just a new way of uh reframing.

SPEAKER_00: 42:04

Very clever director, writer, to come in and just just smooth out those problematic subplots.

SPEAKER_02: 42:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:15

Because it's such a fabulous music. Like it really is. I don't think I have ranted and raped about a musical on this podcast like this for a while.

SPEAKER_01: 42:22

No, not like in a yeah, one that you you probably haven't done a lot of or you haven't been involved. You know, it's not like you've choreographed it three or four times or something. So I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:38

I'm going to listen to it again.

SPEAKER_01: 42:40

Um, okay, what would Patty do?

SPEAKER_00: 42:43

What would Sutton do? Let's do Sutton as it is.

SPEAKER_01: 42:45

What would Sutton do? And I do okay. Would you rather you know this is within a very short period of time, a bit like Sutton? You've got nine days.

SPEAKER_00: 42:58

Nine days. This is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01: 43:00

So would you rather um and you're the main rule?

SPEAKER_00: 43:03

Obviously.

SPEAKER_01: 43:05

Of course. Learn how to juggle in nine days and perform it to a full dance number.

SPEAKER_00: 43:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:12

Or learn how to dance on stilts.

SPEAKER_00: 43:16

Oh, those are really hard. I don't know if I would be able to do either of them.

SPEAKER_01: 43:20

You've got nine days. Nine days, or I think I'd have somebody else get genuinely.

SPEAKER_00: 43:25

I don't think I can juggle. Like I have I have tried in the past and it doesn't go well. Like I cannot. The hand-eye coordination doesn't seem to be there for me.

SPEAKER_01: 43:37

That surprises me, and you're really good dancer.

SPEAKER_00: 43:40

Genuinely, it really upsets me. It's the same as skipping. I can't skip. I don't know how to skip like skipping rope. I cannot do it. I'm so frustrating.

SPEAKER_01: 43:50

And you just think in nine days you would be able to learn how to juggle. You think you'd be able to learn how to dance on stilts?

SPEAKER_00: 43:58

I think so.

SPEAKER_01: 43:58

Oh my gosh, there's no way. I I would not have the balance or the coordination myself.

SPEAKER_00: 44:04

My balance is okay. Yeah, no way. And I think my bottom half is better than my top half, maybe.

SPEAKER_01: 44:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 44:09

Like I'm clearly better with my legs and my feet than I am with my arms and my hands.

SPEAKER_01: 44:13

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:14

Maybe. I don't know. But I just know that I've tried to juggle before and it's been a disaster. And then I get frustrated and I just throw the juggle the juggling balls. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 44:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:24

Whereas, you know, I'd be alright on the stilts, wouldn't I?

SPEAKER_01: 44:28

Okay. Well then you do the stilts and I'll do the juggling. Oh my gosh, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00: 44:32

This is why we work so well. We complement each other in so many ways.

SPEAKER_02: 44:38

So many ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:40

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02: 44:41

Well, whenever we're going to be.

SPEAKER_00: 44:42

Do you think the greatest showman are still looking for like circus performers? Because that could be our next kind of like gig.

SPEAKER_01: 44:49

Yeah, probably. But when once they hear this, they'll the phone will be ringing off the hook.

SPEAKER_00: 44:54

We know how this podcast works. We we put it out there into the ether, and all of a sudden, miraculously, it's happening.

SPEAKER_01: 45:00

Yeah. Yeah. So we'll just the phone will be ringing off the hook.

SPEAKER_00: 45:04

Maybe don't say that too loud now that I'm thinking about me instead. So it could be a bit dangerous. It could end up in a neck brace or something.

SPEAKER_02: 45:11

I know it's very brave.

SPEAKER_00: 45:13

It is brave. What can I say? I'm a daredevil.

SPEAKER_01: 45:19

Well, thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_00: 45:20

Let's go and practice. You got your juggling balls versus still?

SPEAKER_01: 45:23

I actually do have juggling balls.

SPEAKER_00: 45:25

Have you got your stilts?

SPEAKER_01: 45:26

No.

SPEAKER_00: 45:27

I'm away to practice. I might be here next week. Either that or I'll have broken my neck. Until next week.

SPEAKER_01: 45:32

Bye.