Musical Lyrical Lingo
We're Musical Lyrical Lingo!
Join Tim and Lj who delve deep into the wonderful world of musical theatre and more importantly the lessons they have learned from different musicals.
Join them as they explore some of the greatest musicals ever created, from the classics to the new and exciting shows that continue to teach us something new.
So whether you're a seasoned fan of the stage or a newcomer, this podcast is for you.
So sit back, relax and get ready to immerse yourself in the world of musical theatre.
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Musical Lyrical Lingo
Hamilton: Genius, Immigrant, Revolutionary part 2
Ever wondered how a founding father most Americans couldn't identify became the subject of Broadway's most revolutionary musical? Join us as we dive deep into the genius of Lin-Manuel Miranda's Hamilton, uncovering the fascinating historical truths and creative liberties that make this groundbreaking show so powerful.
Alexander Hamilton's extraordinary journey from Caribbean orphan to American founding father contains enough drama, tragedy, and triumph for ten lifetimes. We explore how a devastating hurricane launched his writing career, how his relentless work ethic established America's financial system, and how a fatal duel with Aaron Burr ended his remarkable life. But more than just history, we examine the musical innovations that make Hamilton uniquely powerful - from its record-setting 144 words per minute that would make the show last 6 hours if sung at normal Broadway pace, to the clever musical references scattered throughout.
Beyond the history and music, we tackle perhaps Hamilton's most revolutionary aspect - its deliberate casting of diverse actors to portray historically white figures. As Miranda explained, this approach creates "America then told by America now," allowing audiences to connect more immediately with these historical figures while transforming how Broadway approaches representation. This casting philosophy has rippled through theatre, challenging long-held conventions about who can play which roles.
Ready to feel like you're in "the room where it happens"? Whether you're a Hamilton superfan or someone who's wondered what all the fuss is about, our deep dive will give you fresh appreciation for this cultural phenomenon that saved its protagonist's face on the $10 bill and forever changed how we engage with American history through art.
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Hello and welcome to Musical Lyrical Lingo. We're your hosts.
Speaker 2:Tim and LJ. Today and every week we will be discussing musicals, but specifically what they taught us.
Speaker 1:Welcome back.
Speaker 2:We're back, part two.
Speaker 1:Part two about to drop. Get yourself a wee cup of tea, a wee chocolate bar, whatever tickles your fancy. Maybe an energy drink if the long one, oh oh, my goodness, like literally my brain is frazzled, just so you know. So goodness knows what I say in the next hour or less. Who knows how long this could go? Three weeks, two years, longer than the show itself. We just don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, please sit back, relax, relax if you can, and listen to our second part of Hamilton and we'll just drop it in yeah, so a lot to learn, not just in the background okay.
Speaker 1:So full disclosure here, folks. As we've gathered, I'm not the most insane of fans for Hamilton, so I had to do a lot of research. I mean, when I listen to it I still am missing a lot of like a lot of plot. I had to do my homework, so I have 25 pages of notes and that got me to musical number number five and went I can't keep going like this. So it was a, it was a, a selection of numbers I picked. Okay.
Speaker 1:So if you're one to go in order, good luck to you, because no, that's fine, we'll just go with we'll just go with what we got, fair enough, and the fan, the the avid fans out there will just have to jump, jump around the musical because I couldn't keep going. I'd spent about 12 hours prepping it and I was only on on musical number number 5, okay so. I was. It was like I was writing, like I was running out of time okay, so I take it you didn't know anything about the American Revolution?
Speaker 1:what do you think? Let's think about this. Is it a tectonic plate or a volcano, or an oxbow lake, or a beautifully labeled diagram of a waterfall?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I'm a geographer.
Speaker 2:So that was probably your biggest learning was the fact that you were getting dates, and what was the revolution? I was going, alexander who Alexander, who and, in fairness, I think a lot of people were going, even though he is on the $10 bill.
Speaker 1:But I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:A lot of people were going. Why is he on the $10 bill? What did he do? So were you aware of founding fathers?
Speaker 1:No, no, dollar bill, like what did he do? So were you aware of finding fathers? No, no, so, okay. So and don't quiz me on who the other founding fathers are, because I couldn't tell you, but I know alexander hamilton is one of them. Yes, there's a lot of fun. And it's jefferson one. Yes, okay, I've learned that too. Oh, all of them, basically, okay john adams and I.
Speaker 2:They're all finding fathers and they're all people who founded amer.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:John, yeah, that's where you get your signature from, isn't that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was that?
Speaker 2:Because viewers might not have heard that.
Speaker 1:John Hancock. John Hancock was the first person to sign. It wasn't it?
Speaker 2:It was the first person to sign. So sometimes they put your John Hancock there, like put your signature there. Slang, okay, okay, got you okay, um. So the very first song that we it opens, and it opens with telling us about this person who we haven't met yet yeah and then all these characters come in to sort of say who he was and you get the gist of it.
Speaker 2:It's a bit like romeo and Juliet You're told what happens at the very beginning. So obviously, if you weren't aware, you're going to find out within the first five minutes of the song, which is called Alexander Hamilton.
Speaker 1:Funny that.
Speaker 2:It is yeah, so obviously he's on the $10. You find that in it. You find out that he's shot. You don't know how he's shot, you don't know how he shot, you just know that he's shot by this damn fool damn fool who shot him that's it um a word that I had to really look up to understand what it meant in the word was providence, and it just means god and god's intention yeah um, and this it seems to be very evident. He was um.
Speaker 2:You know, he grew up, he was an immigrant yeah and he grew up in the west indies, not right yeah um, and then he ends up going to the mainland, which is, yeah, um, but at this point it's obviously being ruled by by britain. Um, so he's an outsider and he's coming in, and but he's the only one that survives out of his whole family yeah um. So yeah, god had like a a plan a plan, an intention um? Did you have anything in alexander hamilton?
Speaker 1:oh, I've got. I mean, I'm so like all over the place now here. I absolutely did have lots and I'm alexander hamilton, but I'm going to go to my Alexander Hamilton who, as in who was he notes, or do I go to my musical, alexander, what would you rather?
Speaker 2:Go with. Who was he?
Speaker 1:Right, so was an American military officer, statesman and founding father who served as the first US Secretary of the Treasury from 1789 to 1795, during the presidency of George Washington, the first president of the United States. Yeah, I mean, that was almost. I don't want to admit that I went. Oh, he was the first. Okay, but I did know that, it just reminded me of it.
Speaker 1:Born out of wedlock in Charl charlestown. Nevis didn't know where that was. Uh, it's an island in the caribbean sea. Uh, was orphaned as a child, was taken in by a prosperous merchant, was given a scholarship and then he pursued his education at King's College. Despite his young age, he became a prolific and widely read pamphleteer, yes, an advocate for the American Revolution.
Speaker 1:He then served as an artillery officer and saw military action in many wars and battles. Paraphrasing here a bit because we'll be here for 72 years. He served, as I thought this. This was called aide de camp Didn't know what that was French for helper in military camp. Yes, basically meaning a PA or secretary to the person of high rank. And he was aide de camp to commander in chief George Washington and fought under his command, securing American victory and with it independence in the United States. Hence my good friend Lauren's idea to have this episode go out the week of Independence Day You're clever. Wednesday, you're clever.
Speaker 1:Scholars generally regard Hamilton as an astute and intellectually brilliant administrator, politician and financier, who was sometimes impetus or impulsive. His ideas are credited with influencing the founding principles of the American finance and government. With influencing the founding principles of the American finance and government? Yep, that's right. And in 1997, historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hamilton was a genius, the only one of the founding Now, this is obviously in Paul Johnson's opinions, but the only one of the founding fathers fully entitled to that accolade of genius. And he had the elusive, indefinable characteristics of a genius.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you know this is mentioned throughout the musical is about how he was so clever and people realised that he was something special. That's why they sent him over to the mainland, how he was able to really build America and, like you know, he becomes a lawyer and he works on the federal system and he, you know, is right beside George Washington, helping him make really important decisions, especially during Yorktown and things like that. So I think it's only now people are understanding his work and realizing how much he helped America become America.
Speaker 1:Well, that's it. And he, as you've said, he then appeared on the US $10 bill since 1928. Interestingly, in 2015, the US Department of the Treasury announced a redesign of the $10 bill with plans to replace Hamilton with a then undecided woman from American history. Now, don't get me wrong. I love that idea of putting you know an influential female figure on an American note. Why is it not being done before 2015? However, before 2015. However, possibly due to Hamilton's surging popularity because of the musical, the then Treasury Secretary, jack Hugh I think, is that right? Jack Lou revised the plans to replace Hamilton's portrait, instead deciding to replace Andrew Jackson with Harriet Tubman. Great choice of a woman On the $20 bill. And then, surprise, surprise, that decision would later be reversed during the first Trump administration.
Speaker 2:Yes, it didn't actually happen, but, yes, how funny that this was happening, just as a musical where there's a very clear line to say that he's the $10.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, imagine if that had went through.
Speaker 1:Hamilton, the musical totally saved his face A hundred percent, didn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a hundred percent did.
Speaker 1:Quite amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you want to talk about the song then?
Speaker 2:No, no, because that's all I really learned in the song.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I think the song is. I've listened to it so much.
Speaker 1:It's a great opening number for setting the.
Speaker 2:And I think actually the pace of it is good compared to some of the other songs, which do go quite fast because rap. Obviously. That's why Lin-Manuel Miranda wrote it as hip hop, because there's so much to say. It needed to be faster, quite fast because rap. Obviously that's why lima malmrander wrote it as hip-hop, because he said there's so much to say.
Speaker 2:It needed to be faster yeah um, it needed to have those rapid fire lyrics, but it has that good pace where I think if you're really paying attention, you can understand the story and you can go. Okay, all this stuff has happened and now we're seeing him as he's arrived at King's College.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they sing. And every day, while slaves were being slaughtered and carted away see, I'm trying to wrap here across the waves he struggled to keep his guard up. Lynn wrote in Hamilton the Musical at the top is that a book? That must be a book is. I think there is a book Hamilton the Musical. So Lin-Manuel Miranda wrote that at the top of every musical. It's essential to establish the world.
Speaker 1:Hamilton's earlier life was marked by tragedy and a first-hand view of the brutal practices of the slave trade. While working at the trading firm, one of Hamilton's responsibilities was to inspect cargos, which included slaves among the goods for sale. Slavery in the Caribbean caused higher death rates than in the colonies due to the harsh conditions under which slaves were forced to harvest sugarcane. Hamilton likely saw the deadliest side of slavery during his teenage years, leading to his early and life beliefs in abolition. Interestingly though, this line is delivered by Jefferson in the play Perhaps the founding father most popularly associated with slavery. Yes, Jefferson and Madison were the only major founding fathers who owned slaves and didn't release them from slavery during their lifetimes.
Speaker 2:I think George Washington too. I don't know if. George Washington released his Because he definitely had slaves. And actually in that Hamilton's America documentary David Diggs says I think it's really important, I really loved how he said it and I'm not going to quote it exactly. But he says, yes, these people did amazing things, but also they were slave owners and it's not fair to try and erase the slave owner part to look at the good part, just like it's not fair to try and erase the sleeve slave owner part.
Speaker 2:Yeah to um. Look at the good part, just like it's not important. We can't erase the good stuff just because they had sleeves yeah you can have these two things go alongside each other yeah and still it goes in the same with hip-hop stars or hip-hop rappers.
Speaker 2:You can really enjoy their music, but not um align with their political beliefs or what they're saying, you know, but we don't have to be so black and white yeah and I think that's what they were trying to do with hamilton is say, like we understand that that was back in the day and this is now, and yeah we wouldn't do it the same way, because we're looking at it with 21st century yeah, yeah um, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to accept the fact that they had states and all that.
Speaker 1:But do watch that documentary yeah, no definitely respect yeah the good and the bad yeah, funny you had mentioned like hip-hop artists and rappers there. Um, interestingly, when I was like researching, there were loads of parts of the music or the lyrics that took a play on or inspiration from different hip hop, hip hop or rap artists. I just didn't write them down because I didn't know who the hip hop artists or the rap artists were, that they were talking about.
Speaker 2:There's a few that I recognize, like Jabril is heavily in that connection between Alexander and Eliza where he goes a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. That sort of harshness is Jabril.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of you're such a rapper you should have a wee baseball cap on or something and then, like Biggie Smalls, the 10 Jewel Commandments is a homage to his 10 crack commandments.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure that is. You've got the Roots, who are a big hip hop band and they're sort of heavily influenced but is a homage to his Ten Crack Commandments. I'm pretty sure that is. You've got the Roots, who are a big hip-hop band and they're sort of heavily influenced, but I'm not a massive hip-hop band, so there's a lot and there's more and more and more and more like Beyonce. There's also Jay-Z is mentioned and Alicia Keys and stuff. But yeah, unless you are in that world.
Speaker 1:And know their music and their lyrics inside out.
Speaker 2:Now what world I am in, and I'm going to talk about it just because we're on that. I am in the musical world.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to talk about all the musical references.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Within the musical, so in Adam's administration, he says sit down, john, you mother, and then it's like bleeped out. But the sit down John bit is a reference to the musical 1776, which is about the founding fathers.
Speaker 1:Oh, I need to listen to that then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good musical. It's a good film of it as well. Okay, bill Daniels, who played Mr Feeney in Boy Meets World. He is John Adams, oh right.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That's what he's famous for as well. The line in New York you can be a new man.
Speaker 1:New York, you can be a new man as we know it's a musical.
Speaker 2:Hell's Kitchen now is a musical. My Shot shot You've Got to Be Carefully Taught is directly from South.
Speaker 1:Pacific.
Speaker 2:Right Hand man is from Pirates of Penzance.
Speaker 1:Right Hand man.
Speaker 2:And he talks about the general. Here comes the general.
Speaker 1:Here comes the general yeah.
Speaker 2:Nobody Needs to Know is from the last five years.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:And Lin-Manuel Miranda was a massive jonathan larson he was yeah um, obviously he directed the andrew um garfield tick, tick, boom. That was on netflix. Um, but where you've got, I'm pretty sure it's in york town and they go click boom that is yeah, and then we've got in york town again. It says go man, go that's. West Side Story and then Burr talking is like Judas and Jesus Christ Superstar.
Speaker 1:Burr is a like. Actually his character's very Judas-y, isn't it throughout? And and even how obviously like those two? Um, they're, they have history, don't they? Duh, um, but the way it's played on stage was very judas. Jesus and jesus christ, superstar, do you know? I didn't pick up on those musical references. That's really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, completely. Uh, can we go back to geography for a wee minute? And alex, yes, and alexander hamilton, and your daughter mentioned it. She actually then mentioned she didn't like the follow-on song Hurricane, but he mentions a hurricane right at the very beginning. Then the hurricane came and I'm not rapping, it's so embarrassing. Then a hurricane came and devastation reigned. One man saw his future dripping down the drain, put a pencil to his temple, connected to his brain, and wrote his first refrain. Put a pencil to his temple, connected to his brain, and wrote his first refrain, a testament to his pain, and the word got around he said this land is insane man to the mainland anyway.
Speaker 1:So I'm so proud of myself. I did a bit of rapping there of hamilton. I never thought I'd see it. So the storm, or the hurricane, it was on August the 31st 1772. A hurricane did devastate the city Hamilton lived in at the time. Historian Michael E Newton described it stating that the storm featured 70 feet swells through down about half of the island's buildings. I know you don't realise the extent, do you? Just from a lyric. Do you know what I mean? It destroyed over 500 houses and uprooted all of the trees on the island's plantations, which I would have said at that time would have been, you know, pivotal and really important. The total damage was estimated at $5 million and at that time that's a lot of money, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Hamilton, a self-educated teenager at the time, then wrote a detailed account of this hurricane and the letter was published in the Royal Danish American Gazette. Miranda noted that a phrase at the end of this letter was his favourite and Hamilton wrote the roaring of the sea and wind, fiery meteors flying out about it in the air, the prodigious glare of almost perpetual lightning, the crash of falling houses and the ear-piercing shrieks of the distressed were sufficient to strike astonishment into angels, like that to me just meant what a writer, like what a writer Hamilton was and obviously you hear it in the musical about how he writes and he writes and he writes. You know his writing was so important, but like man he wrote like that.
Speaker 2:Isn't that insane. I wrote my way out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he clearly did. Yeah, because if that's something that a teenager is producing about. You're going to go wow, that person is amazing.
Speaker 1:Like totally amazing. And that reference to pencil interestingly you know it said a pencil to his temple forges a connection to Hamilton's nonstop writing ability. However, the reference to the pencil is almost certainly for the sake of rhyme, because the modern pencil was first invented in 1795. Oh okay, over a decade after the American Revolution ended. So Hamilton would probably have used a pen or a quill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but not to poke fault, but Lin-Manuel's very incorrect no, but to be fair to Lin-Manuel, he explains himself often of it wasn't right. But that rhymes too good to miss do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:yes, because you've got Sam Adams where John no, he says he doesn't meet all of the, he doesn't meet Madison, he doesn't meet Lafayette.
Speaker 1:Lafayette.
Speaker 2:Not Madison Lafayette. Oh, he hasn't met Madison yet. It's the same character plays Madison Right, like John Lawrence and Mulligan Barr. Doesn't meet them at the same time in history, but for the sake of the play, you get them all in in that first number right.
Speaker 1:We need to know who these people, especially because they're multi-rolling like you need to get established their first character pretty much straight away so that when they change character you're not going what.
Speaker 2:So John Lawrence says I'm John Lawrence and the place to be. I'm working on drinking with Sam Adams and I'm working on three or something along those lines. Right, which was a beer, but actually Sam. Adams was a founding father as well. I've never drank as well with Adams have you.
Speaker 1:You nor have I. I didn't know about it until um until the musical that was another one of my musical yeah, and I think that is just something that was put in.
Speaker 2:I don't think there was a sam adams beer around then, I think was there not something said yeah, hold on. Red coats is a reference to the british soldiers, but I did know that.
Speaker 2:I was constantly watching historical things like that. But yes, it's very quick. This musical is very quick and I think the fact that Pro Shot was released whenever it was released it did give a whole new love to a generation who were able to see it rather than listening to it, because, as CJ said, it's very fast and you're not always picking up on the mix, especially when it goes from meeting those guys into my shot.
Speaker 2:And then you're like why, what? What's going on? You know, at one point it's just cut off. And if you're not listening to the album like directly yeah what is going on here?
Speaker 1:even at that, you need to keep up.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Can I just go back to Sam Adams? Yeah, apparently it's a wordplay on Samuel Adams, a famous beer established in. That's what it is. Yeah, samuel Adams remembered as a brewer, which is why the Boston Beer Company named their brand after him.
Speaker 2:Ah, okay.
Speaker 1:Who knows I might be wrong? No, named their brand after him. Ah, okay, who knows I might be wrong? No, no, no. Um, alexander hamilton. Yeah, my name is alexander hamilton.
Speaker 2:It's a very long time in that first number before we're actually introduced to alexander hamilton, yeah, but I like that, yeah, because it kind of gives you a bit of suspense and you're like who is this? Oh right, okay, he's had an awful lot, yeah and at what point in his life are we meeting him?
Speaker 2:because there seems to be so much going on? Then you're like who is this? Oh right, okay, he's had an awful lot, yeah, and at what point in his life are we meeting him Because there seems to be so much going on? Then you're like, oh, we're still meeting him. When he was a teenager.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So our title character finally does make his grand entrance with that distinctive, established musical theme. Just in case you forgot his name. In case you forgot his name, our star is it's mentioned quite a lot with the earworm of a melody as well, and the motive reoccurs at numerous points throughout the show. Just in case you forget Spoken six times in this cadence by Hamilton himself and another nine times by the ensemble, miranda stated that the cadence came to him immediately and that Hamilton was an absurdly musical name.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this entrance is set up by the introduction of Hamilton's various contemporaries. Miranda mentioned this choice, saying this song was originally written as a Burr monologue when Hamilton was still as a concept album in his head. It wasn't until they realised they were writing a musical that he began to divvy up the monologue among the people who bore witness to Hamilton's life. This owes a debt to the prologue of Sweeney Todd. There you go, another musical reference. All of the characters set the stage for the main man's entrance.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, he's such a clever man, isn't he? He?
Speaker 2:really is. He really is Very, very clever and there's a lot. You know even where it goes me, I died for him. And you look at the characters that sing that line and it is ones that are double cast.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they do. Like John Lawrence dies, but he also plays Philip.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Me, I loved him, and it's all three women.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just. I think every time you watch hamilton or listen to it, you'll see something different, and I that's what I love about it do you know what?
Speaker 1:let's be, let me be positive for a moment, because I feel I've been a bit negative and it's not that like hamilton's a great show, like an amazing show and it's worth its hype. Maybe I will appreciate even more when I watch it again, having put the research, because what you've just said about those characters are, you know, I didn't pick up on that the first time round because obviously I didn't know the story. Do you know what?
Speaker 2:I mean, and I didn't know what to come don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1:The musical soundtrack dropped like I listened to it non-stop, yeah, but yeah, I suppose watching it again will be.
Speaker 2:I think you should do that. Yeah, have it a go.
Speaker 1:Having said that, can I pick another hole? Just one wee tiny one. So he sings moved in with the cousin. The cousin committed suicide. Are you impressed? I got that For any rapping song that I do in the right cousin. The cousin committed suicide. Are you impressed? I got that? Any rapping song that I do in the right rhythm I'm delighted with. After Hamilton's mother died, he and his brother were placed with their 32-year-old first cousin, peter Leighton. James Hamilton Jr, alexander's younger brother, later described his cousin as insane. He was a failed businessman breaching bankruptcy and supporting a black mistress and their illegitimate child. Leighton killed himself rather dramatically on the 16th of July 1769. Sources suggested he both stabbed and shot himself. Now, however, in the musical on that lyric, one of the ensemble members mimics hanging to the word suicide, which is historically inaccurate, probably easier to stage and a lot less bloody.
Speaker 2:Yeah. In ways I forgot to do the stabbing and shooting at the same time.
Speaker 1:I love that line Alexander Hamilton, we are waiting in the wings for you. That, like nod to waiting in the wings, that common idiom for theatre, meaning an actor is ready for their cue to come on stage. Metaphorically maybe means the American colonies and people are waiting for Hamilton to arrive on their shores and to help shape history.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a mixture of both.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:I love it. Yeah, I do think Lin-Manuel is very clever. I obviously spent not a lot of time on it and I think you need to appreciate the work that has gone into it. I wouldn't say there's a lyric there, there's a lyric there, there's a movement there for a reason. Yeah, my Shot is the big. I'm not throwing away my shot and I understand where CJ's coming from because it is overplayed. It is what not everybody's doing, but I suppose it's the first like and it's punchy.
Speaker 2:They're all ensemble songs, but you know what I mean. It's the first one that you can really like get going.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Throw on some shakes there. He says unpeachable, as she had mentioned something that is above criticism or doubt. Yeah, unpeachable, yeah, I can't even think of the line now, but yeah, and then also that word brandish means to weigh something, especially a weapon or other object, in a threatening or excited way, and I think during my shot it was written to show that these are young men who have a passion for their country and they want their country to be free, and they're teenagers or they're graduates.
Speaker 2:And that's why it's written that way, rather than a group of men, you know, compared to, say, like the cabinet battles, which are maybe a little bit more sophisticated compared to my shop, yeah, it's kind of showing that journey of his his life yeah it is at that point I love that line.
Speaker 1:I can't remember it now. And yeah, I'm young, scrappy and hungry what is it hungry? And I'm not. I love, just love that line. I'm like that's the the line we should all live by. Yeah, we're young, scrappy and we're hungry and we're not gonna throw our shot away shot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then also that is physically done with a shut.
Speaker 1:Aye, they're having a good old drink, aren't they? The four or five of them?
Speaker 2:And then Burr comes in Geniuses lawyers.
Speaker 1:Voices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he's so different to Hamilton and that is portrayed through how he speaks and how he sings. Hamilton is so fast and on the go, and then Burr is just slower.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a smoothness to him isn't there. Can we talk about Aaron Burr, sir, for a minute, that's? You know, when Alexander sings on meeting Aaron Burr for the first time, he says sir, I've heard your name. At Princeton I was seeking an accelerated case of study when I got sort of out of sorts with a buddy of yours. I may have punched him. It's a blur, sir. He handles the financials and Aaron Burr responds with you punched the bursar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so obviously bursar, as explained in the lyrics, is a person who handles university's finances. This figure was chosen to be the recipient of the punch because it continued the play on Burr. Sir, in reality, hamilton met with to be the recipient of the punch because it continued the play on Bursar. In reality, hamilton met with John Witherspoon. Do you think Sorry he was the president of the college. Do you think that's where Witherspoon's came from?
Speaker 2:It's not a very common name, is it?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I was standing there and I was like is that why we've got Witherspoon's? Was he a drinker? Do you think this John Witherspoons? The president of the college.
Speaker 2:He could have been drinking all the young men's money.
Speaker 1:All of the what is it? What's that beer we were talking about earlier? Sam Adams, yeah, but in reality Hamilton met with John Witherspoons, possibly accompanied by Mulligan, and outlined his reasons for wanting to graduate with as much rapidity as his excursions would enable him to do. Is what he said? Witherspoons did take Hamilton's two year proposal to the board of trustees, but it was them who collectively rejected hamilton. I don't think hamilton. Hamilton threw any punches, but miranda had say, had a very simple reason for deviating from the real story and he said the rhyme was just too good to pass up and also I think it was.
Speaker 2:It's another way to show that he was feisty and fiery, because that was hamilton and he was also a massive flirt as well yes massive ladies um so they all were, though, because burr was as well, I think in those days they just were, weren't they? Yeah, I think it was important just to find somebody, because they didn't know how long they were going to live that's true, maybe it passed tomorrow I also liked.
Speaker 1:In that line it said don't be shocked, but uh, when your history book mentions me, do you have that one? Yep, I thought that sly reference to hamilton becoming part of american history and perhaps even to the book that alexander hamilton uh, on alexander Alexander Hamilton, written by John Chernow, was that inspired the musical. I thought clever.
Speaker 2:Lin-manuel Miranda very clever and I also like the line from. It's not a musical like Ringo, but I like where Mulligan says and I've got all you knuckleheads on the local parentis, which kind of lets you know that he's a little bit older than them. Yes, yes and yeah. So just as we small things kind of, they're not always just throwaway lines.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Add more to the story, which is why you need to watch the game.
Speaker 1:I will.
Speaker 2:We come across three women and they are called the Skyler sisters, work, work. We come across three women and they are called the Skyler sisters, work, work, and Angelica sings about Common Sense by Thomas Paine.
Speaker 1:Yes, I had this one too Common Sense was a pamphlet in 1776.
Speaker 2:And I think whenever I first listened to this musical I forgot that. Actually, a lot of times when they're referencing works, it's pamphlets that they're rather than books, and I forgot that that was just the time period a lot of things are done on that, so, and this pamphlet advocated for American independence from British rule, and we've already mentioned that Alexander Hamilton was a big fan of these pamphlets and sort of delved deep into them. And there you can see the connection, though it was just made for the musical between Angelica and Hamilton.
Speaker 1:I've been reading Common Sense, but Thomas Paine. Thomas Paine originally published Common Sense anonymously because of its treacherous content, but his identity was revealed about three months later. He ended up donating all of his royalties to Washington's Continental Army.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:There you go. In the Schuyler sisters they sing his daughters Peggy, angelica and Liza. Philip Schuyler and his wife Catherine were said to have had 15 children. Interestingly, they appear in this order Peggy, angelica, eliza only once in the song, which is this line to help fit with the upcoming rhyme. Again, however, the rest of the time in the Schuyler Sisters they're announced from oldest to youngest Angelica, eliza and Peggy the Schuyler Sisters. Perhaps coincidentally did you know that that's also the order in which they died.
Speaker 2:Yes, I did know that.
Speaker 1:So Peggy died in 1801, angelica 1814 and then Eliza in 1854. Yeah, but that's not just that doesn't just happen by chance. He even thought about that, like I can't get my mind round how somebody's so clever. In so many different ways. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:I know it's a real talent.
Speaker 1:It's insane ability. Yeah, definitely is as well. Know what I mean? I know it's a real talent.
Speaker 2:It's insane ability, yeah definitely is, as well as like everything else that's going on Like. This is his second musical that he wrote.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, and like his first was really good. Like In the Heights was class as well.
Speaker 2:It's just so, so strange. Yeah, Farmer Refuted Again. I didn't realize that that song was called that Farmer Refuted. It mentions Samuel. Seabury and he sort of reads out a note from the king, and he was a significant figure in American history and early development of the. Can I say that right Episcopal, e-p-i-s-c-o-p-a-l Church, episcopal, episcopal.
Speaker 1:Episcopal, that's it okay.
Speaker 2:He was a local supporter of the British Crown and in 1775 Hamilton wrote an essay in response to Seabreeze loyalist pamphlets.
Speaker 1:And I love that bit in the don't modulate the key and not debate with me, or something along the lines. I just like love that and CJ mentioned that, didn't she? With modulating the key.
Speaker 2:You'll be back, which is brilliant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you were talking about British rule. I suppose we should talk about him, shouldn't we? George Washington, the no, not George Washington, no, not, oh, my God, king George, I meant that Like he was in my head, it just didn't come out of my mouth.
Speaker 2:Lin-manuel Miranda said that this was actually the You'll Be Back was. John Laurie actually said that line and then that was the song. That sort of came out. Oh, ok, they kind of used the Beatles you know sort of like. Is that refrain?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Or just sort of do it, but it is a class tune.
Speaker 1:It is very Beatle-like. It gets in there and you can sing it back, can't you?
Speaker 2:And also that part was always meant to be like a revolving door. It was always meant to be a part for somebody really famous to come in, because there's only really two songs.
Speaker 1:And he's very stand alone in what he does on stage. So it's easy to drop somebody in and pull them out again and we have had some big names in that, like Brian Darcy.
Speaker 2:James we've obviously had Jonathan Groff.
Speaker 1:Joel Montague.
Speaker 2:There, Daniel is playing it at the Minion. And yeah, there's been.
Speaker 1:You know, lots of people have just sort of fitted into that role and it's a really nice role to bring your own thing to the table, like all of the King Georges, like present, in really different ways. Do you know what I mean, which I think is really refreshing about a part?
Speaker 2:and lynn said the reason that he is solo is to show how the um, how revolution is a collaborative effort nice but king george always stands as the monarch, which is one voice and one row oh my god, like so clever, so clever.
Speaker 1:He sings. You say the price of my love's, not a price that you're willing to pay. You cry in your tea, which you hurl in the sea when you see me go by. Now that just sounds like a clever or like funny rhyme, but actually actually one of the primary grievances put forth by American subjects prior to the start of the revolution was taxation without representation, ie Britain reserved the right to make Americans pay taxes on goods and trade without allowing them representation in the British Parliament which set the tax rates. The resentment of the American people towards seizing a shipment of British-controlled East India Company tea and hurling it into Boston Harbour, ruining the goods. The British Parliament responded with strict sanctions.
Speaker 2:I know, I know, but yeah, and that's the second time tea is mentioned in the musical, you know, and it isn't just that they were, and it was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back type thing, it was just that. Was it Like we've had enough? Why are they controlling so much? We need to stop this.
Speaker 1:What a clever protest, though right, chucking the tea into the sea. That's so funny, horrified, wasn't it? In that song, a wee melody, cool fact or cleverness, I suppose, from Lin-Manuel. Again, he sings oceans rise, empires fall. And just Miranda, creating that friction between the lyrics and the melody, where it goes down a few notes on the word rise and it goes up in scale on the words fall. But you would never think of that. Empires rise, no. Oceans rise, empires fall, clever.
Speaker 2:Clever, such a clever man.
Speaker 1:Very clever, very clever.
Speaker 2:In Right Hand man, which is when we're first introduced to. Here comes a general rise up.
Speaker 1:Here comes a general.
Speaker 2:And we're introduced to.
Speaker 1:Not right-handed man, like your daughter thought it was.
Speaker 2:We're introduced to George Washington. They mention Kipps Bay, and that is just a place in New York City, and obviously you forget that the British are coming over in boats.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So they need to go to a bay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And New York is obviously on a bay. So yeah, there you go. Convenient, that's it, also Pips Bay. There's a lot of dueling that goes on, which.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about dueling then? Yeah, yeah, that's good so I also wasn't aware of that as a as a way of dealing with um issues.
Speaker 1:Okay, back in the day yeah um, because when I came like actually Hamilton was the first time I came across a, you know, let's have it like a jewel type thing, do you know? Normally you would think of like fencing and stuff, right, but like that in history that's how they dealt with things. I was like that's really bizarre. So Hamilton and Aaron Burr were political rivals with different political differences. Right, hamilton was a federalist who supported strong central government. Burr was a Democratic Republican who believed in strong state-level government. Right, their rivalry would truly begin in 1791 and culminated in I can't say it. Do you know what we've been talking for so long? I've lost the power of my tongue culminated in Burr challenging Hamilton to a pistol duel on the 11th of July 1804.
Speaker 1:The immediate cause of the duel was disparaging remarks made by Hamilton that Hamilton had allegedly made about Burr. At a dinner In June they agreed. Burr wrote a letter to Hamilton calling for an explanation. The two men engaged in a correspondence that ultimately resulted in Burr demanding that Hamilton deny that he had ever spoken ill of him. Hamilton felt that he could not comply without sacrificing his own political career. So, although Hamilton opposed the practice of duelling due mostly to his son Philip dying as a result of a duel three years prior in exactly the same location. He reluctantly accepted. The duel began at dawn along the west bank of the Hudson River on the Rocky Ledge in Weehawken, new Jersey. Both opponents were rowed over from Manhattan To kind of keep it a secret and away from other eyes as possible.
Speaker 2:There's also that line in Hamilton where everything's legal in New Jersey what they're talking about. But this is how weird our podcast is. So I've been watching American Sweethearts, which is all about the Dallas cheerleading crowd.
Speaker 1:Okay, sounds riveting.
Speaker 2:So it's great and one of the in the first season. One of the tryout girls is from Weehawken.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:And the director goes like I wonder, is there anything famous that goes on there? And I was sitting in the room and I went Hamilton the Jewel and I was like like I was in the middle of doing my research.
Speaker 1:But how did an American not know that?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but while that was going on I was like I could have been researching any musical I could have been doing anything at that point but I was researching hamilton I know high street, high street, yeah interestingly in the you obviously see this in the musical ham hamilton did something called de looped.
Speaker 1:I didn't know what that meant, but that's just like throw away his shot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the practice yeah, I'm not throwing away my shot. Oh my goodness. Oh, you only get click boom, click boom. Um, the practice of deliberately wasting one's first shot in a pistol duel in an attempt to abort the conflict. However, burr returned with what proved to be a fatal shot. It hit Hamilton in the abdomen area above the right hip, fracturing a rib, tore through his diaphragm and liver and lodged in his spine. I have no idea how Alexander Hamilton lived for another 31 hours with that amount of damage, but he at the time declared himself as a dead man and he did die 31 hours later.
Speaker 2:Also in 10, jill Kamala's. Whenever we're first introduced to that sorry, the second time we're introduced to it, because we're introduced to it whenever they're in the middle of fighting in the revolution. He's talking to Philip and he says no, if he's a real man he'll throw away his shot. That's pretty much what the whole musical is about.
Speaker 1:I know, I know, but I haven't listened to it. Listen, I'm tired. Interestingly, jewels were based on a code of honour, so jewels were fought not to kill the opponent but to gain satisfaction, that is, to restore one's honour by demonstrating a willingness to risk one's honour, by demonstrating a willingness to risk one's life for it.
Speaker 2:And there's a great ever watch Bridgerton in the first series. The men do a duel over the honour of his sister.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But I have to do it because this is, you know, there's a whole big thing, but also I understood that because of Hamilton. So also another thing I want to talk about Ten Jewel Commandments.
Speaker 1:Ten Jewel Commandments I haven't done this in a while.
Speaker 2:I'm very famous for my misheard lyrics.
Speaker 1:Oh great, Can't wait for these.
Speaker 2:It goes through number one, Right, and obviously it goes through ten times and one says look him in the eye. And then the next part says aim no higher.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I always thought it said look him in the eye in Ohio, oh.
Speaker 1:Lauren, but I always wondered why was Ohio so special? With regards to yeah, to dueling, dueling, yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2:There we go. That's my misheard lyric for Hamilton. There's many, I'm sure, but that's the only one that really that's fun. Eh, obviously there's many, I'm sure, but that's the only one that really that's funny. Um there, obviously you've mentioned that there's a lot of stuff that has happened, but or he just mentions that isn't actually true. Martha washington apparently did not actually name her cat after um alexander. Again, that is meant to be false, but what?
Speaker 2:is true we know, in Satisfied, eliza mentions Ben Franklin. It's like the key in the kite right and that was his experiment to demonstrate lightning as a form of electricity, and that was conducted in 1752 and Satisfied would have been sang around 1780. Oh wow.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That is true.
Speaker 1:Very good. Hamilton's lyrics are life lessons in themselves, aren't they? Like he sings I am the only thing in life I can't control. Yeah, I am an original.
Speaker 2:That's better.
Speaker 1:No, but I'm saying Hamilton lyrics yeah. So no matter how much you want to control other people, you can't. You're the only thing in life you can control. And the second line there kind of goes with lesson number one, doesn't it there?
Speaker 2:yeah, I love once we get past like the winter's ball and satisfied and helpless, and I think some of them are great songs. And then we get past like the winter's ball and satisfied and helpless, and I think some of them are great songs. And then we get into the battle. I love guns and ships.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Love that and I love your time. Love all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I have a great karaoke version of York town. And sometimes Charlotte and I will just do it and I'm like I'm Madison and I'm not Madison, I'm Mulligan and she's Lafayette, and it is so much fun and Aaron will come down and go. We have neighbours. You need to stop.
Speaker 1:Is it really that bad, aaron? Yeah, oh, dear right, okay, I think I kind of think you need to do it and record it and put it on our socials. People need to see that.
Speaker 2:You should do it with us.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't know the words enough.
Speaker 2:They come up on screen.
Speaker 1:I don't know the tune, I just know attack the chain.
Speaker 2:Attack the chain.
Speaker 1:That's not even the tune.
Speaker 2:I'm so good at it. Yeah, honestly, you'll have to record it for me. I promise I won't put it on socials. I'll do it for you one night looking forward to that it says leave the battlefield in Guns and Ships. It says leave the battlefield waving Betsy Ross's flag higher and I was like who is? Betsy Ross well, apparently Betsy Ross is a USA historical figure who is known for allegedly creating the USA flag. There's no real concrete evidence, but there is evidence of her family telling the story.
Speaker 2:And just because it's not written down, sometimes a story passed on in family means it is. She was an upholsterer, she did exist and she did make stuff for George Washington.
Speaker 1:Well, there you go. Sometimes a story passed on in family means it is. She was an upholsterer, she did exist and she did make stuff for George Washington. Well, there you go, because EP Arne has slept through both of these podcasts and he knew that because he was basically patting himself on the back, yeah, and giving himself his own round of applause Well done, yeah. Have we bored you? The?
Speaker 2:rest of the time. In also the mentions in Guns and Chips. We rendezvous with Rochambeau. Rochambeau To consolidate their gifts. So Rochambeau is two things. Rochambeau is a French general who played a crucial role in the American Revolution, but it's also the American name for rock paper scissors.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which I didn't know. Did you know that?
Speaker 1:No, okay, yes, I did. It just made me feel better.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's a lot of learning in this, isn't there?
Speaker 1:There absolutely is a lot of learning. He was paper work, though. That's one thing I learned about Alexander Hamilton he got himself out of tight spots. Yep, he put himself into those tight spots, but by being a I can't even talk anymore.
Speaker 2:I believe in you. He rode his way out. He rode his way out.
Speaker 1:He rode his way out from letters and check stubs, even though the incident that happened several years earlier. He was able to dig back from that paperwork. I'm talking about the Reynolds pamphlet. When accused of financial misconduct and an affair with Maria Reynolds, hamilton produced a pamphlet admitting to the affair but denying the charges of corruption. While controversial, this act of transparency, albeit self-serving, allowed him to control the narrative and salvage his political reputation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he would rather have admitted that he was terrible in private life.
Speaker 1:I thought you were going to say terrible in bed.
Speaker 2:No, dan admit that he was.
Speaker 1:I thought that's where you were going.
Speaker 2:I don't know why he would rather admit that he was terrible in private life by having this year long affair with your woman and paying her husband for the pleasure of doing so yeah then say that he was um terrible at his job.
Speaker 1:Yep, which is very strange it's quite the sword to fall on, isn't it?
Speaker 2:and also there's a clever part. We know, being in theater, that there's one play that you don't mention whenever you're in the dressing rooms. Yeah, and it is Macbeth. And once Macbeth is mentioned in this musical, it is the start of Hamilton's downfall.
Speaker 1:There he goes again, being a clever so-and-so.
Speaker 2:It is his downfall Really. I love when we get to act two and we now have, you know, lots of character swapping and we've got the song what I Miss and we're introduced to.
Speaker 1:Are you only on act two in your notes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, now yeah.
Speaker 1:We're halfway through episode two and you're only hitting act two now. No, I know, but I'm just saying I'm just saying, you know, like I love I love that.
Speaker 2:And the line Virginia, my home, sweet home, I want to give you a kiss. Virginia was Jefferson's mistress slave, oh, okay, so that's why he says that. I'm just saying.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, Listen, there's a lot. As I said, there's a lot in this.
Speaker 2:There's a lot to learn.
Speaker 1:Can I get another coffee, as I said?
Speaker 2:there's a lot in this. There's a lot to learn. Can I get another coffee? Yeah, sure, go for it. Room when it Happens mentions two Virginians and an immigrant walk into a room, diametrically opposed foes, and this is an adverb meaning completely or in direct opposition. They were direct opposites. And then Room when it Happens is real shift for Bert because he has. I'm willing to wait for it, wait for it, wait for it. And then room where it happens. He's not allowed in this room and he goes. I want to be in that room. I'm going to have to change my game here, my gameplay here. I want to be in the room where it happens. Right, okay, I'm changing.
Speaker 1:You had mentioned immigrants, immigrants. There it's a big theme throughout, isn't that? Um, you know there's that line. See if you can spot him another immigrant coming up from the bottom. That pro-immigration message of hamilton is at the forefront, as the show revolves around the life of one of the four founding fathers of the us and how he made his mark in American politics as an immigrant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, immigrants, we get the job done Exactly.
Speaker 1:Instead of being characterised as a white person, Alexander Hamilton's immigrant status is referenced throughout the show, along with the virtue and prowess of Hamilton by working a lot harder and being a self-starter. Yeah, and as you've said, immigrants, we get the job done both stated in the show's opening and fostering a positive image of immigrants.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Multi-racial casting of the show also supports the pro-immigration stance of the show. We'll maybe get onto that towards the end here.
Speaker 2:I mentioned that whenever there's my shot, it's all about they're a lot younger and they're trying to fight for their point. And then, whenever it comes to the cabinet battles, you know they're a lot more eloquent with their words. They're really sort of hitting home. You know Jefferson and Madison are fighting to keep the South and you know jefferson and madison are fighting to keep the the south. And um, you know alexander hamilton just wants to be able to control the money and all of that stuff, but they're fighting over. Should they go and help france?
Speaker 2:because france then are in the middle of one of their many revolutions, yeah um, and they're saying listen, we, we signed the truck, the treaty, with a guy whose head is now in a bin. What are we going to do Like that? We can't send aid to every single person that is in the middle of a revolution.
Speaker 2:We are barely a country ourselves here. We need to look after ourselves and there's a lot of to and fro and you can see both sides. But it says the people are rioting. There's a difference. It says, um, the people are rioting, there's a difference. Frankly, it's a little disquieting, which means causing characterization of unease or anxiety. So in this moment, everybody feels discomfort and whenever you're watching a battle, you do feel uncomfortable yeah, yeah those choice of words are important, yeah yeah you know I'm coming towards the end of my Are you? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Are you sad?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not, it just there's a lot in it. So much I think it also does take you to be watching it. You know to go what is that you know what did that mean, or, oh, actually, yeah, I I understand that.
Speaker 1:Do you know that Hamilton would last four to six hours if it wasn't sung at the pace it's sung at?
Speaker 2:That's mental, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or sorry, or if it's sung at the pace of other Broadway musicals. Yeah, it clocks in twice as many words per minute compared to other musicals. Hamilton cast recording is two hours 23 minutes long, with a total of 20,520 words, which works out at roughly 144 words per minute. The fastest tracks are just shy of 200 words per minute.
Speaker 2:Whoa, and I bet it's Lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette's Lafayette.
Speaker 1:Lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette, lafayette.
Speaker 2:Lafayette, lafayette, lafayette. It was cut and there was one or two more horses in a couple of the cabinet battles just shaved them down a bit yeah, I just I think they were going.
Speaker 1:Okay, he needs to die now he needs to die, he needs to go that is all my is it?
Speaker 2:majority of them. The rest of them, you know, are not really that important.
Speaker 1:One of the things and I want to leave it to the end because I wanted your opinion it's this idea. Do you think Hamilton is the most famous or the first production to popularise? Blind casting, as in Hamilton calls for, like, a diverse cast to betray America's notably white founders. It's obviously described as the story about America, then told by America. Now and you know you said that that Lin-Manuel had said that Hamilton casts non-white actors as the founding fathers of the United States and other historical figures.
Speaker 1:Miranda said that the portrayal of Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, george Washington and other white historical figures by black, latino and Asian actors should not require any substantial suspension of disbelief by audience members. He stated our cast looks like America looks now and that's certainly intentional. It's a way of pulling you into the story and allowing you to leave whatever cultural baggage you have about the founding fathers at the door. He noted we're telling the story of old, dead white men, but we're using actors of colour and that makes the story more immediate and more accessible to a contemporary audience. In 2016, a statement responding to allegations of anti-white discriminatory casting called an ad Producer Geoffrey Seller called it essentially to the storytelling of Hamilton that the principal roles be played by non-white actors. The only principal role played by a white actor in the original production is the one most played for humour King George. My question is was it the first? Because I'm trying to think of a musical that came before hamilton that ignored the the historical and just cast, regardless of race, colour, any of that, was it the?
Speaker 2:first. I think it's definitely, yeah, it's definitely the first that deliberately went we're not casting white because they were white historians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, historically.
Speaker 2:Historically, historically, but I don't think it's the first blind casting. I think that's what most musical theatre is. It's just the right person should be getting the role.
Speaker 1:I've used the wrong phrase, then Is blind casting the wrong?
Speaker 2:word no. No, I think blind casting is right. I think this is.
Speaker 1:But if you think of, since Hamilton and I'm just going to use it because it's in my head like Oklahoma Edowani, Before Hamilton Edowani would have always been cast as a white actress. Now you've got black, you know black actresses playing roles like Edo, Annie and many others that would have historically been cast as a white actress or actor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I suppose guys and dolls.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like Lou now you go to the theatre and you will have no idea what race or you know.
Speaker 2:Which is how it should be.
Speaker 1:No, a thousand percent. But what I'm saying is is that a Hamilton effect? Is that another thing that Hamilton, because Hamilton was so obviously not afraid to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think there's a difference I agree with you.
Speaker 1:It should be the way it's done. Yeah, but I just don't recall producers or productions doing it prior to Hamilton. I think there's a difference doing that prior to Hamilton I think there's a difference with Hamilton.
Speaker 2:Hamilton almost goes out of its way to make sure that the characters all are a representation of different ethnicities, while now I think producers are going it's okay if that person wants to play this role and they're the best for it.
Speaker 1:So it's two separate things.
Speaker 2:Because if you think of like the notebook and you think of Hirschchild Hermione's always you know from the day on Hirschchild Hermione was black. Well, hermione's not in the books or in the films. So there has always been that out there. But the fact that it's specified in the casting notes or something isn't being you yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:No, fair enough. No, I just I wanted to ask you because I couldn't recall and then I didn't know if it was the same thing or if it's two, if it was two separate things playing.
Speaker 2:No, I think it probably gave it light as to go okay, well, what are you doing? I think I think it's a very tricky one whenever it comes to historical, because I think if you were then to take something that was, you know, like Vietnamese or you know like, going okay, Kim is going to be white.
Speaker 1:Miss Saigon yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's going to be white, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to play because actually there's more white people in Vietnam now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, west Side Story without Puerto Rican representation.
Speaker 2:I think it's. It's a difficult one, isn't? It yeah, I think, because Hamilton has always been that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's much more acceptable while trying to change something, like trying to change a myth cycle change something like trying to change a myth cycle, and you've got you know, you've got that reasoning behind it's yeah, you know yeah, america then being told by America now yeah because if you were to set a scene or a musical in London now, it would be very different to setting it in my family any time yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, yeah same in Dublin, or something yeah all those cities which have become much more cosmopolitan.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think you are telling it now yeah, so you have to represent people that are there now.
Speaker 1:Fair. What were your standing ovations then for this? Like monster of a musical. Yorktown burn and you'll be back. I do also like Wakeport. Okay, mine would be Alexander Hamilton. If we were to do a pod on the top 10 best openings, it would be in there. I like my shot. I like the Skyler sisters satisfied and the room where it happened.
Speaker 2:There you go. You'd like to weigh more than what I thought.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, I'm maybe not being clear, yeah you don't like it. I won't go and see it because I'm not willing to pay the money to go and see it. Yeah, Because I think the ticket prices are extortionate. But I probably need to watch it a couple more times. But I did fail when I watched it for the first time. The pro shot it's very long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember you saying that and.
Speaker 1:I wonder if it wouldn't fail as long if you were in the theatre and you were seeing it live, compared to sitting at home on the sofa and watching it on TV. I think that's probably played a part in my opinion and loads of people are like, oh, but you need to see it live, you have to see it live. It's not the same and I'm like, I get it Like I know, live theatre gives everybody a buzz and your arse probably won't be as sore sitting watching it in the theatre. I just felt the length of it. Watching it on Disney+.
Speaker 2:Well, I definitely would encourage you to re-watch it on Disney Plus.
Speaker 1:In bits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like watch it in. You know, take it up to stages, Take it up to the first battle and then take that to the next. Yeah, yeah you know like, do it in sections.
Speaker 1:I planned to watch it prior to this, but I just didn't have the seven hours.
Speaker 2:It's three.
Speaker 1:Okay, anyway, what would you rather do? I have two, because I think I know your answer to the first one, so I'm prepared for the second. Perform an energetic in the room where it happens from Hamilton or a sassy the Schuyler sisters.
Speaker 2:Piyama and the.
Speaker 1:Schuy Sisters. That's so weird. That was going to be my second question, so answer the first one first and then I'll give you the second one. We know what your daughter's?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'm not going to say anymore.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll go with Rhyme where I thought oh really, that's not what I thought you would say. I thought you'd say the Skyler Sisters.
Speaker 2:I was going to say Skyler Sisters, because I don't know which part I'm playing.
Speaker 1:But why does that matter?
Speaker 2:Because if I'm just going, I'm Peggy.
Speaker 1:Do they all have a wee bit?
Speaker 2:of Skyler.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the second one was we know your daughter's answer to this Eliza or Angelica.
Speaker 2:Eliza.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you and CJ. It would look completely wrong because of age, but you could play together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do think I could be fast enough for Angelica.
Speaker 1:Angelica, I love that satisfied number and the rewind, rewind rewind, rewind, rewind.
Speaker 2:I remember all that.
Speaker 1:I remember that night, I remember that night for the rest of my days that was so butchered Right so in the room where it happened, and then neither of them really applied to me. I'd do King George, I think I could do.
Speaker 2:King George yeah, I think you'd do very good, king George.
Speaker 1:You say the price of my love's, not a price that you're willing to pay.
Speaker 2:You cried Love it.
Speaker 1:Folks, if you survived those two episodes, I tell you what you've got sticking power. But we've done it. Now, Hallelujah. I don't need to like have anxiety over Hamilton no, ever again.
Speaker 2:No, all good, all good. Well, thank you for joining us and we'll be back. I am roasting with not a big bigger. There's no real bigger musical than Hamilton, or at the moment, sure there isn't.
Speaker 1:I don't think. I don't think. Well, I don't think there has been a musical that's had the impact that Hamilton's had. I don't think there will be for a very long time. I think it's shows like Hamilton only happen once, yeah, in a while. Do you know what I mean? They don't happen very often.
Speaker 2:But we'll be back with the musical.
Speaker 1:And I think he's tried to do it again with Warrior, but it hasn't hit the mark for me, certainly from listening to it.
Speaker 2:No, but he'll get there again.
Speaker 1:He will get there again. He will. I might need to go and have a lie down after this for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. Well, thank you for.
