Musical Lyrical Lingo
We're Musical Lyrical Lingo!
Join Tim and Lj who delve deep into the wonderful world of musical theatre and more importantly the lessons they have learned from different musicals.
Join them as they explore some of the greatest musicals ever created, from the classics to the new and exciting shows that continue to teach us something new.
So whether you're a seasoned fan of the stage or a newcomer, this podcast is for you.
So sit back, relax and get ready to immerse yourself in the world of musical theatre.
RSSVERIFY
Musical Lyrical Lingo
Parade Unveiled
We set the stage for a deep dive into the heart of musical storytelling with "Parade," a show that, despite its rarity on stage, remains profoundly impactful. Prepare to be swept away by the nostalgia of the Donmar Warehouse production and the anticipation of new theatrical adventures to come.
The second part of our episode shines a spotlight on the poignant love story at the center of "Parade," exploring its themes of hope and perseverance against adversity. We reflect on the original Broadway production and its legendary performances, while celebrating Lara Pulver and Bertie Carvel's emotive portrayals in the 2007 Donmar Warehouse staging. Our discussion takes an emotional turn as we compare cast recordings and share personal connections to the musical, including the regret of missed opportunities and the joy of timeless storytelling.
In our final chapter, we traverse the historical landscape of Georgia, uncovering the intricate cultural narratives within "Parade." From the Old Red Hills to the Chattahoochee River, we delve into themes of nostalgia, sacrifice, and the Southern heritage that shapes Leo Frank’s journey. We also explore the complex racial and anti-Semitic tensions that influenced Frank's trial, as captured in the musical's powerful lyrics. With gratitude for our listeners' support, we wrap up with a promise of fresh and engaging content in future episodes, ensuring a blend of lighthearted discussions and musical explorations.
Musical Lyrical Lingo Intro
Musical Lyrical Lingo end jingle
All About M.E. PODCAST
Welcome to the "All About M.E. Podcast ," the podcast where music meets the...
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Don't forget to rate us, share with your friends and follow us on our social media channels.
Hello and welcome to Musical Lyrical Lingo. We're your hosts, Tim and LJ.
Speaker 2:Today and every week we will be discussing musicals, but specifically what they taught us.
Speaker 1:We're back after a little week's rest.
Speaker 2:A wee half-term break.
Speaker 1:Half-term break rest and relaxation. I am also a little bit bummed. For some rare reason you've got the cold, I know, but you would think, having had a week off okay I wouldn't be bummed with the cold, because normally like colds come like at the beginning of holidays. But I had it all last week and it's just.
Speaker 2:It's just continuing it's because your body knew you were getting a little bit of a break and then it was like I'm gonna make you sick now yeah, I mean it's, it's low level sickness. It's just like runny nose but you don't sound too bad, no I think it makes me sound like.
Speaker 1:I would never say that about myself, but it makes me sound husky and attractive and no, you're putting all these words out.
Speaker 2:I don't like it no. We have not got our handheld mics today, so I feel a bit weird it does feel bizarre, doesn't? It. I feel like we're doing the hand clap or something.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, you do miss it a bit Because I think we're used to, like you know, singing a wee song and, like you know, karaoke and all the rest of it speaking of that speaking of karaoke.
Speaker 2:Yeah, got a new app on our TV and it is. I'm sure loads of people use it. It's like called Roxy. Have you heard of it? No well, you can play music quizzes on it, but there's also karaoke, and not just standard karaoke, there's musical karaoke.
Speaker 1:As in musical theatre. Karaoke as in musical theatre.
Speaker 2:Now, there's not a huge range, but yes, there is Hamilton and yes, my daughter and I did spend the majority of Saturday night practicing Yorktown from Hamilton and we have nailed it so if anybody goes sick. I'm a particularly good Hercules Mulligan, so if anybody is ill, I can do it. I can do it.
Speaker 1:Well done. I'm glad to know that's how you spent your half term. Is it R-O-X-Y or?
Speaker 2:R-O-X-I.
Speaker 1:I see, I just knew there was going to be something about it. But I can't wait until we have a little gathering at my house and we get the karaoke on, but like you have to pay me an awful lot of money to perform these days, I'll just you know, make you blackmail me Make me. Like you make me do most things yeah with this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm only joking you, I do. Actually, that brings it on nicely. I was thinking on my way over here have I been quite forceful this this, this season? Because I'm kind of like I'm quite excited by the musical we're doing today?
Speaker 2:because it's another one of my favorites.
Speaker 1:And then I've been looking back and thinking back on on the, the shows that we have done this this season, and there have been a lot of my favorites like Wild Party, sweeney Todd, and I'm going. Am I being a bit forceful and going? I think we should do this one next.
Speaker 2:No, I think that this is just kind of how season two has gone.
Speaker 1:It's just because it does like happen in my head. It happens quite naturally. What will we do next? Actually, we'll try this one, or like it's not like that's okay.
Speaker 2:I'm glad, no, but I love this musical that we were talking about as well.
Speaker 1:I'm glad I just kind of went oh, here we're doing another one of my faves. There's going to be none left.
Speaker 2:It's the Tim show.
Speaker 1:Season three shows. I went like boring Because we've done all the really good ones, in my opinion, this season. No, no, there's plenty more to go around.
Speaker 2:No, we still actually tonight. I was like thinking about again some of the big major musicals that we haven't even touched, haven't even probably mentioned.
Speaker 1:Well, you've just mentioned one of them.
Speaker 2:Well, I know, I know that is one that we will that scares the life out of me.
Speaker 1:Anyway, shall we move on to this week's musical then let's, let's, so what? Are we doing? What's another one of my favorites lauren that you also like parade, yeah. Parade, parade, yeah, and I like I think Parade does have a name, yes, like I think it is recognised within the world of musical theatre, but then I also don't think it's recognised because you don't see it very often, yes, or you hear of it very much.
Speaker 2:I suppose we're talking about it now, in 2024, and there was the revival last year yeah. So I would say maybe if we had have done this last year, maybe towards the very beginning of the pod, maybe people wouldn't have known about it as much. So I think maybe that that new revival we obviously have spoken about it on the pod because we got to talk to lovely Zoe briefly- about it and she was in the Dunmar Warehouse production in 2007 and that was the first time I came to it, and I only came to it because this is the show that Zoe's in.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? And I fell in love with it from that, from that moment. I've never seen it on stage and I would love to see it on stage, but it's another one of those ones. When you listen to the cast recording particularly, in my opinion, the Don Moore Warehouse cast recording, I think it's the best one out there.
Speaker 2:This is why we are similar Because I love the new, the 2023, with Ben Platt, like which we will mention the Broadway one. I love the original, but I think for a musical that you haven't seen on stage, you need to listen to the 2007 Don Marmon, because I agree there's. It's not just the songs, there's a bit of the story in it the drama and it really you get a really good understanding of what the story is about, how they're feeling at different points of the play.
Speaker 1:And that cast were Outstanding, sublime I haven't used that word very much this season but were sublime in the storytelling and conveying their emotions and the story through your ears. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but anyway. Shall we talk about it? Yes, so Parade music with book by Alfred Urey Urey, yeah, I think, and music and lyrics by Jason Robert Brown Beautiful. The music is a dramatisation of the 1913 trial and imprisonment and the 1915 lynching of Jewish-American Leo Frank in Georgia. Leo Frank was a Jewish factory manager who was tried and convicted of raping and murdering a 13-year-old employee, mary Fagan.
Speaker 2:The trial was sensationalised by the media and it aroused a lot of anti-semitic tensions in atlanta, in the us state of georgia, that's right, that's right um yeah, I just was going to go back and talk about jason robert brown, because he is a fantastic um composer and he was inspired by Sweeney Todd and Sunday in the Park. They sort of helped him write.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is really cool that we've just done Sweeney Todd and then we're doing Parade.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he said that if he hadn't have discovered Sweeney Todd and Sunday in the Park, he probably would have joined a rock band. Oh, that's really interesting, I know. So that is what made him go into musical theatre.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, this show was Jason Robert Brown's first Broadway production, and they say that his music is a wonderful mix of subtle and appealing melodies that draw on a variety of influences, from pop rock, as you've just said, to folk, to rhythm, blues and gospel, all within this one show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he also his style of writing. So he has, he did 13.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Which I love, that musical. I think it's great, like I mean.
Speaker 1:I just don't want to watch a bunch of 13 year olds. Okay, well, I you know. I think it's great you're a mummy yeah, bridges of Madison County which some say is his best.
Speaker 2:He did music for Mr Saturday Night Midnight. He's currently working, I think, still on a production of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. And then one which maybe people would know him for is the last five years, which is about his breakup um. So it's kind of um semi autobiographical, that word biographical um, but also he was um introduced to parade because sultan turned it down.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, it's Hal Prince who we know again from Sweeney Todd. So Hal Prince was introduced to Brown by his daughter, was a fan of his work, and then, as Zoltan had turned it down, they turned to Jason Robert Brown. And then another connection where I just love learning more about everything is the fact that Alfred, who wrote the book, he grew up in Atlanta, knew the story very well and it was his uncle who owned the pencil factory that Leo Frank worked in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when Frank's death, leo Frank was found guilty of this rape and murder and was committed, he was given the death sentence, but it was then commuted to life in prison by the departing governor of Georgia at that time, john M Slayton, in 1915, due to his detailed review of over 10,000 pages of testimony and possible problems with the original trial, leo Frank was then transferred to a prison in Milledgeville Georgia I think I've said that right where a lynching party seized and kidnapped him and Frank was taken to Mary Fagan's hometown of Marietta in Georgia where he was hung from an oak tree.
Speaker 2:He was. It's very sad.
Speaker 1:It's unbelievable. And here we are again talking about another musical which is based upon a historical event you know, and that's my first musical lyrical lingo.
Speaker 1:I was not aware when I first listened to it, even after the 10th time of listening to it, that this was a real story, which makes it even more like crazy. Now the musical's story concludes that the likely killer was actually the factory's janitor, Jim Conley, and he was a key witness against Frank at trial. And the villains of the piece in the musical are the ambitious and corrupt prosecutor, Hugh Dorsey, who later became the governor of Georgia and then became a judge.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And also the the judge Rowan. Yeah, and the very anti-Semitic publisher Tom Watson as well, and he played a big role in kind of the media hype and turning the power of media yeah.
Speaker 2:And how then they his song Big News or yeah, yeah. So it's about how he was going to use this trial to launch his name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:The case was opened in 2019. Oh was it, and it's still ongoing.
Speaker 1:Really, I didn't know that now yeah, so it's just such a wild story. But it yeah, and. But at the same time, you're not surprised, like you know yeah, I know it's.
Speaker 2:It's hard that like what was this 1913? Yeah to 1915. Um, I know that that was a long time ago, but it still doesn't seem that long ago that something like this happened, that it literally is one person's word against another, because where Mary Fagan was found was in the factory. Also, I think this was just my interpretation of it. Leo Frank seemed like maybe nowadays he would say he was autistic. I just where he's counting as he's wanting to be superintendent or he is superintendent he also wasn't very comfortable in his new surroundings in Georgia.
Speaker 1:He didn't feel he belonged. He fitted in. So he kind of kept himself to himself because he was just like you know, on one of his first songs is all about that. Like I just I'm not, I don't fit.
Speaker 2:No, and I think whenever the police first arrested him on suspicion of this because obviously it happened in his factory that he wasn't very like I don't know there was like a disjointed, like reaction, because he was like I didn't do it, you know, and was very matter of fact. Well, suppose, like maybe if he was autistic, then maybe that would be hard for him to to relate to or something to get his head around.
Speaker 1:Why could you possibly be accusing me? Yeah, I also think it was very telling of the time that the two main suspects one was Leo Frank, a Jewish man, and the other was Newt Lee, you know, a black man. You know what I mean. And there's a lot of both that anti-semitic kind of content and racial stuff throughout this musical and within the musical numbers. Um, yeah, um. Also Harold, uh, harold Prince and Uri wanted to emphasize the relationship between Frank and his wife, lucille throughout the musical too. So it wasn't just about you know the crime and the trial and you know the the equality issues I've just mentioned. It was also that relationship between Frank and his wife. Their relationship shifts from being very, quite cold, yeah, and, as you said, like kind of um hope.
Speaker 2:You know Leo Frank was a bit standoffish even with his wife yeah, I've got to go to work, I've got to do this.
Speaker 1:And she's like let's go for a picnic yeah at the beginning and then to the, to a warm and loving, you know, relationship. And I think the poignancy of the couple who fell in love in the midst of their adversity um is at the core of the musical.
Speaker 2:But it also makes the tragic outcome, that miscarriage of justice at the end, even more disturbing yeah, I think throughout that when you see that relationship and you believe that they do love each other and that they would do anything for each other and she certainly, you know, goes out of her way to try and prove his innocence it is so loving and it shows that there is hope, no matter what situation you're faced with.
Speaker 2:It doesn't always become a really happy let's skip off into the sunset type ending, but there's still hope, no matter what you know, and she always had hope well, that's it, even after him going.
Speaker 1:Just go home, lucille, like you can't help me here, there's nothing. What are you gonna do? He even says that, doesn't he like? What are you gonna do? How are you gonna make this?
Speaker 1:better and you know she doesn't stop. She, she's got grit. Two fantastic characters. Do you know what I mean? Very good. The musical premiered on Broadway in December 1998 and ended its limited run on the 28th of February 1999. After 39 previews and 85 regular performances, it won two Tony Awards for Best Book and Best Original Score out of their nine nominations. So well done, jason.
Speaker 2:Robert Bryan. I know well done him.
Speaker 1:For his first music Broadway production After closing. In Broadway the show had a US national tour. It seemed to be a much more like US nationally national tour-y kind of show. And then, as we've, already said, it had its first major production in the UK, playing at the Donmar Playhouse from September the 24th to November the 24th in 2007, directed by Rob Ashford. As our friend Zoe told us, go back and listen to that episode again. It starred Lara Pulver as Lucille and Bertie Carville as Leo.
Speaker 2:And I think that that match was beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, also two local actresses. We had Jane Wisner from here as Mary. I didn't realise she was Mary Fagan until I was doing research again. And then our wonderful friend Zoe, who was also in it.
Speaker 2:Both Pulver and Carville were nominated for an Olivier Award, and there was also a fantastic cast recording of that production that I would urge everybody to go and listen to and go onto YouTube and it's there and just listen and it's great because you get a really deep understanding of these characters and I think the way Birdie plays it is lovely.
Speaker 1:He is lovely is unbelievable.
Speaker 1:And, as far as I'm aware and I think zoe told us this too that was his first musical yes he had done a lot of plays, but I think that's the, I think that's what was so powerful, yeah, and I think that's that's why this, in my opinion, is the best cast recording, because he came at it yes not as a singer, as an actor who just so happens to have a decent voice, yeah, but you know, at at times and I'm a big fan of ben platt, but I, preparing for this episode, I listened to the don war warehouse one first and then it's like I'm gonna go and listen to the, you know, the broadway revival. Um, and there's, there's no comparison. There was almost a disconnect in my head with the Broadway one because you were missing that angst that you could hear from Birdie, like he was absolutely stunning.
Speaker 2:That's why at the beginning I said play, because I feel like the Donmar one is more of a play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think, even though Aaron thinks she's very attractive, I think that she is beautiful.
Speaker 1:Her voice is beautiful in that too, lara Pulver Is Aaron a fan of Lara Pulver, aaron is a fan of her.
Speaker 2:And I really thought that their relationship comes through in that cast recording as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I have to say I think that her name has escaped me. The girl that played it with Ben Platt.
Speaker 1:It's.
Speaker 2:Michaela Diamond. Michaela Diamond, I think she did a very good yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:Like that 2023.
Speaker 1:Broadway revival is great and, like it is, a great cast recording. It was also nominated for six Tony Awards, winning two for Best Director, michael Arden, and Best Revival of a Musical. So two really, you know, successful. But just for me, I can't get past the rawness and the emotion that's in that Dunmore Warehouse cast recording. It could be also because it was the first time I'd heard it do you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yes, we've got a bit of connection to it yeah, I heard it first, before I then went and listened to the original Broadway cast recording. Do you know what I mean? But it's still my favourite.
Speaker 2:No, but people do say that the you know that 2007 production there is a more of a focused and impactful presentation from how it was all done, and I think Zoe spoke about it as well, about how it's in a small. That's a small theatre, yes, and there was a buzz around it, and she says, like even now, people would still talk to her about it and I think is that amazing to be part of I know it's.
Speaker 1:It's one of those like musicals or productions that you regret not having seen, like I really wish I'd seen that. You know at the time, do you have productions like that? Is there like a production in your head where you're like, oh, I totally missed out in seeing that? No, no, yeah, that's nice.
Speaker 2:That's a nice place to be in yeah, I don't get me wrong, I'd probably be like that would have been nice, but I don't like regret.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's like the feeling I would have had if I didn't, if I hadn't seen Imelda Staunton in Hello Dolly, like I kind of go. Oh, I really wish I'd seen, you know, birdie and Lara in that.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, there was a lot there around it.
Speaker 1:It's a good, but that's why, as I said at the beginning of the podcast, like I was so excited for this episode, I haven't even started the musical there in Fairlingos.
Speaker 2:Well, apart from learning that it was a true story, True story. My also learning was about the parade and the reason why it's called.
Speaker 1:Parade. So talk about parades. Yeah, because it starts with like a parade or getting ready for a parade, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:No, because it starts with like a parade or getting ready for a parade.
Speaker 1:No, it starts with the old red hills yeah, yeah, which is a song, and then it goes into the parade so mary fagan was killed in 1913 during the um confederate memorial day parade parade in georgia.
Speaker 2:And um the confederate memorial day is a holiday observed in the southern US states, originally publicly presented as a day to remember the estimated 258,000 Confederate soldiers who died during the American Civil War. So I didn't know that that was something that happened. And is the Confederates? Were they baddies or goodies? I don't really understand America Civil War. They didn't win.
Speaker 1:They didn't win yes, because Leo makes comment to that. That's in one of my musical lyrical lingos that I have maybe over a couple of pages. He can't understand why they're having a parade and celebrating honorees who didn't win.
Speaker 2:Yes, I just get very confused about American history, but obviously it's not a history that we learned.
Speaker 1:Lauren, I get confused about history full stop. I'm glad you took that musical lyric lingo I learned. Obviously we now know from the story that Leo Frank basically was lynched, yep, and was killed, yep. And I didn't realise that's what lynchings were, right, okay so, and they were widespread occurrence, which began in the US in the 1930s, slowed, slowed down during the Civil Rights Movement in 1950, 1960 and then continued until 1981. Lynchings in the US reached their height from the 1890s to 1920s and their primary victims were often ethnic minorities.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, because also I read, read somewhere and I'm not 100 true, but apparently this case did start up the kkk again it re it.
Speaker 1:Yes, it re ignited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that like organization again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because of what had happened to Leo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the injustice of it kind of like kick-started that again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which isn't great.
Speaker 1:The first song they sing is called the Old Red Hills of Home. Yeah, lovely song.
Speaker 2:A wee bit similar to, in my eyes, a wee song I was singing earlier from Calamity.
Speaker 1:Black Hills of Dakota. Don't you ever say that, ever again. If you want to go back to season one and listen to our Calamity Jane episode again, you'll all remember how I feel about the Black Hills of Dakota and I certainly do not feel the same way about the Old Red Hills of home. I can't believe'd, even just because there's hills in the title.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 1:So the old Red, the Red Hills region is actually an official geographic region of Georgia and Florida, originally settled by Paleo Indians. The region is referred to in Martin Luther King's I have a Dream speech. Did you know that?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't.
Speaker 1:He says I have a dream that one day, on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit together at the table of brotherhood.
Speaker 2:Lovely. So it opens just as a soldier is going off to the war. So it doesn't open in 1913. And that's what I learned as well. Just like that nostalgia, the old Red Hills of home means the deep emotional connection to nostalgia for one's homeland, marietta in Georgia, during the time of the Civil War. The hills are to represent sacrifices, longing for the past and pride in one's heritage, and that is a uh uh, something that you can you can tell from the parade, then, reasons why they do that.
Speaker 1:Um so, it's got a kind of double meaning, because there are there is actually the region called the red hills and the rushing of the Chattahoochee. Two seconds on the Old Red Hills. Interesting fact. No, I know, but on the Old Red.
Speaker 2:Hills, the actual Red Hills yeah.
Speaker 1:The things I learned when researching this. Honest to goodness, like I felt like I was thrown back into the case. Were you, honest to goodness, I thought it was a detective.
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought it was Hills and you were like honest to goodness.
Speaker 1:No, no, like the things I learned. But actually the old Red Hills are also mentioned on Mary Fagan's tombstone.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:Which resides in Marietta. I told you I think I'm going to blow your mind Like Lauren. Lauren, I think I am going to get a gold star from you today. I really do. It reads in this day of fading ideals and disappearing landmarks, little Mary Fagan's heroism is an heirloom than is an heirloom than which there is nothing more precious among the old red hills of Georgia so that's what it actually says on our tombstone See, these people are just musicals.
Speaker 2:Very clever.
Speaker 1:I think we should go to Georgia.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's go. We'll go to Georgia.
Speaker 1:So the rushing of the Chattahoochee.
Speaker 2:So it is a river in southeastern.
Speaker 1:USA. Is that a place? I just I found out it was just a river making up the Georgia border.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it forms the southern half of Alabama and Georgia border, as well as a portion of the Florida and Georgia border.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:See the country's so big, I just am like what?
Speaker 1:And like what.
Speaker 2:How big is that river?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you've certainly explored more of America than I have. Like, I've been to New York, whoop, whoop, but, yes, no, I haven't explored it as a country at all, to be quite honest with you.
Speaker 2:But yeah, massive, absolutely massive, and that's a nice word to say Chattchie the chatahoochie, it's a fun.
Speaker 2:I mean, who needs the mississippi when you've got the chatahoochie and the soldier sings, we'll sing dixie again, yeah. So then I went into a rabbit hole about this, so sometimes known as dixielands. I wish I wasn't dixie is. So then I went into a rabbit hole about this, so sometimes known as Dixielands. I Wish I Wasn't. Dixie is a song about the Southern USA from about 1859. Dixie is also a nickname which came from somebody who is from the Southern parts of America. It did originate in the minstrel shows.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And was a favourite of Lincoln's, and it played at General Robert Lee's Surrender.
Speaker 1:Oh, there you go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we know Robert Lee from Hamilton.
Speaker 1:If you're a honk, if you're Lorne and you spend four hours singing it off Roxie so, yeah, that's all I learned from the old red hills of home me too picture show then does that come next? Well anyway, what do you have?
Speaker 2:next I have. How can I call this home? Go ahead so this is Leo where he's in. I actually think picture show might be next.
Speaker 1:It's fine. No, how can I call this? Home is next. No, I think you're right 13 hours.
Speaker 2:He says how sorry. He says how can I call this home? He's talking about how he is a Brooklyn lad, but he's now living in. Georgia and he doesn't feel like he belongs yeah, so then I was like how far is it? And it's a 13 hour drive from Brooklyn to Georgia very good.
Speaker 1:So I suppose it is a wee bit far interesting. The, the musical lyrical lingo I got from. How can I call this? Someone's going to leave it out, because you've just talked about Dixie, but there's a line that is la la la in the land of Codden, and that's actually that line actually quotes from Dixie with the popular song of the mid to late 19th century that you've just spoken about.
Speaker 2:Well, he's going. He's listing everything as to how he can't call Georgia home. He says I don't cuss, I don't draw, so draw is a slow or lazy way of speaking. Yeah, is that right, cuss and I don't draw, so drawl is a slow or lazy way of speaking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is that right, cuss and send naughty words.
Speaker 2:It is A southern drawl.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the accents are class aren't they yeah? The Georgian drawl yeah, Can I talk about the picture show?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry because I have a picture show next.
Speaker 1:So in the picture show, Frankie, who is like a young lad who's basically interested in Mary Fagan, wants to take her to the Picture Show.
Speaker 2:And I thought there was a resemblance from this song to Picture Show in Bonnie and Clyde.
Speaker 1:Or Picture Show in Oklahoma. That's what Will Parker sang about when he went to Kansas going to the picture show.
Speaker 2:I just thought the melody was similar.
Speaker 1:Oh, the melody Right. Okay, fair Interesting, I'll have to go and have a listen to it. Oh, you're making comparisons left, right and center. At least that one's not as offensive as the last one. Anyway, frankie sings. You know the one called the Silver Gun? Well, I've been watching since chapter three. Yes, so the Silver Plated Gun was a 1913 movie about the struggles between a robber on the run and the sheriff chasing him, and that kind of bears a striking resemblance to the plot of the rest of this musical, doesn't it how the town tries to incriminate Leo and that struggle for justice between them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's great. I originally typed it in wrong and I was researching a film called and I kept it in because I was like just shooty, you need to double check One called the Silver Whip whip, which was a 1953 film. I was like how did they go and see a film in 1953?
Speaker 1:not quite. He also sings, we frankie. I got a book. You wanna look. It's called the thief and the brigadier. Now, there isn't actually a book called the Thief and the Brigadier, although Arthur Conan Doyle's short story, the Crime of the Brigadier, does bear striking resemblance.
Speaker 2:I don't know that name, Arthur Conan Doyle.
Speaker 1:Because he's a famous author.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but what did he write, sherlock?
Speaker 1:Holmes. There you go Now. It isn't a stretch to assume, though, that Frankie does mean Doyle's work, since he also messes up the title of the movie, the Silver Gun, by leaving out the word plated. So maybe that was just very clever. Maybe, Jason Robert Brown.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll go with that.
Speaker 1:I'm going with that too, Yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, excellent In my Child, will Forgive Me oh don't I mean?
Speaker 1:I'm not a parent and I struggled to listen to it. I can only imagine.
Speaker 2:So that line whenever. So poor Mary is dead and terrible things have happened to her and she's found in the basement. But just after the picture show she goes. I got to go get my pay and she walks in on Leo and he's counting pencils or whatever and she's like I'm here for my pay and he gives her her pay and that's the last we see of her. Yeah, and the next we hear of her here is somebody has been murdered and other terrible things and they are in the basement of this factory. Yeah, and the police are there and people are going. She's laying there like how was she dragged from all over the place? And then her mum comes in and says hello, I'm looking for my daughter. She didn't come home. We're like what's her name? Yeah, mary Fagan. And you just go, oh, because we then realize, oh, we, we knew it's that girl that was talking about. She's not old enough to go to the picture show she has to wait two years.
Speaker 2:Her mom won't allow her to go. She was working in this pencil factory for like no money at all, um, and then she's being murdered. Yeah, and she sings the, the little lavender cotton pangy dress. And that is a type of silk made, um, from satin, or sorry, it's similar to satin and I just was like the fact that she just she made a little dress for this little girl and oh, I know it's so sad.
Speaker 1:It is such a sad story, yeah, and when we're talking about mary fagan, it's p-h-a-g-a-n. If anybody wants to go and do the own research of the case or whatever, don't be typing in um gotta pick a pocket or two, fagan it's it's p-h-a-G-A-M in the number.
Speaker 1:Leo at work, forward slash. What am I waiting for? He sings God all the noise, and on yontif yet and yontif is a general term for Jewish holiday, and this is the bit where Leo's annoyed that there's a parade going on for a war that the honorees lost but not for the holiday celebrated by the Jewish community. Lucille also sings in that number and she's kind of singing about. She can't believe how lucky she is to have met Leo and married Leo and she had. You know, leo looks after her and gives her, you know, finer things in life that she's never had before, like a new winter coat with real ermine color. And I didn't know what that ermine color was, do you not know either? I'm quite surprised, I would have thought you you will, when you, when I tell you ermine is a fur consistent of a white background with a pattern of black shapes representing the winter coat of a stout. So you know, like you know me and my girl that big royal red cloak with the ermine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I didn't know.
Speaker 1:that's what that was called. So there you go In the number interrogation. I'm trying to remember Newt Lee, who I had said earlier was the other suspect body. This is reference to the evidence used against Newtley in the real trial of Mary Fagan's death. When the body was discovered, he was able to identify it as Caucasian. However, the police and the detectives deduced that this was suspicious, considering that the corpse was covered in soot and dust from the basement, covering her skin in a dark layer of dirt, and authorities deemed her to be too dirty to identify her race at the time of Newt discovering her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's wee things like this that I came across and you were probably the same as you were researching just how clever Jason Robert Brown was within the lyrics to take the smallest, as you say, the smallest word or phrase, which then linked into the facts of the real trial. I just thought it was really very clever. He's very clever throughout.
Speaker 2:And that's what the 2023 production also did as well. Well, the set design included images of Leo's actual trial.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they tried to make it as authentic as possible. That's really cool and that's, I think, also one of the directorial decisions was I watched quite a lot on it was Ben Platt to not go off stage during the interval. He stayed on stage and that was kind of a life went on.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But for Leo, he was just stuck in that cell for two years, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that was just kind of another reflection of everything that was going on in funeral, the number funeral there's a fountain or forward slash. It don't make sense um they said I think it's one of the factory girls actually sings and she knew how to read and this is a really key point of the trial for Mary Fagan's murder that was left out of the show.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because actually in the real trial two notes were found next to Mary Fagan's corpse. Yes, these two notes aren't mentioned at all.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:In the storyline of the musical. But that line and she knew how to read is meant as a reference to the fact that she was seemingly competent enough to write notes as she was being killed. Right um, the notes seem to accuse newt newt lee yeah of murdering her. Actually, jim conley later admitted to writing the notes yeah, so can we talk about him for a minute.
Speaker 2:Let's go for it, okay, so?
Speaker 1:jim conley was another black employee at the pencil factory. See, this is when I became a flipping detective. I was loving life and he was a major contributor to the guilty verdict in Leo Frank's trial. Connolly's testimony claimed that he found Frank standing over the body, which he then helped to carry down to the basement.
Speaker 2:Yes, because everybody couldn't understand if Leo this was one of the questions like if Leo did kill and he admits that he's seen her because she came for her pay why was she dragged all the way down the stairs?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then just left there like if you're gonna, yeah, drag somewhere, you might as well sort of finish it off, um. But then he was like no, he made me write, write it this way. Um, he stood over me, he told me that that note wasn't good enough and I had to write another note and just even all that.
Speaker 1:Crazy.
Speaker 2:Why are we believing this? I know, it all seems very bizarre.
Speaker 1:Now Jim Connolly was sentenced to a year in prison as an accomplice, but today most historians agree that Connolly was the likely culprit of Fagan's murder, a theory that also Frank's legal team kind of fought for. He in the number that's what he said, which is Jim Connolly giving his testimony. He sings. She's a very pretty girl. He said don't let me catch you. Looking at Miss Mary Perkins and this is another link or detail from the real trial that Jason Robert Brown put into the musical because during Connolly's testimony he got Mary Fagan's name wrong during- this examination.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, isn't it? He also sings, and so I found me an old gummy sack and wrapped her up. Um, I didn't know what a gummy sack was. No, it's, it's basic. I think we would like call it a hessian sack oh, that's what I thought but I wasn't sure if it was like or I don't know. Do americans call them burlap sacks? Not sure. They're basically like uh, inexpensive, durable, widely available. I think we call them hessian sacks okay, you know here um. Do you have any others, or am I rumbling?
Speaker 2:no, no, no, yeah, no, go ahead. Yeah, are you sure I'm?
Speaker 1:nearly done. I promise you. Um, I know you won't tell no one nothing. Here's $100, he sings Again in Connolly's real testimony he stated that Leo Frank bribed him with $200, but then he changed the story with the money, as he did with lots of other things which you can hear in the musical number blues feel the rainfall. That's when all of these lies that he kind of told in his testimony start to unravel. Yeah, um, because at that point in the musical lucille has succeeded in getting people to look at the case again and to look at the evidence In the number a rumbling and a rolling, and that's like the chain gang, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They sing about, they never cared much about folk like us. And that line is sung by a black resident of Atlanta, where black people were being raped and murdered. Nobody really cared. But now, all of a sudden, they're making the point that you know a white girl, you know experiences the same thing, and reporters are coming into town by the busload, yeah yeah to investigate the crime.
Speaker 2:And I also read, just to go back where you know, leo was meant to have bought him off or, you know, bribed him with the money that again was to. You know, play into the fact that Jews have a lot of money and control and will use money as power. You, know so it was his way of saying well, we know he's Jewish and we know Jews have lots of money. So he of course, him offering me 200 pounds, which kind of then helped fire that you know. Let's all go against him because he's Jewish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, also another reference to one of the lyrics to show just how you know black people were being treated. In a rumbling and a rolling they sing. There's a black man swinging in every tree and from 1882 to 1968 over. This is insane Like this makes me sad that we live in a world that these things did happen like this.
Speaker 1:so between 1882 to 1968, over 4,500 lynchings took place in the US, with 72.7% of those being African Americans yeah, horrible interestingly, I don't know if you noticed when you were listening through to it again or looking at the lyrics, how many times a tree was mentioned. Um, the imagery of a tree is mentioned in so many of the songs, just linking him to the, the final instance. You know that's the last time. You know that lyric. There's a black man swinging in every tree. That's the last time a tree's mentioned until before yeah, leo's, leo's murder. My last musical lyrical lingo is the last song which actually makes me cry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so I am. I don't want to offend anybody out there, because my pronunciation, which actually makes me cry, shema, yeah, yeah, so I am.
Speaker 1:I don't want to offend anybody out there because my pronunciation will not be good. Leo Frank, before he's hung, because he knows what's going to happen to him, sings like an ancient Jewish daily prayer yeah, go and listen to it because it's so beautiful, isn't it? It's done to the melody, isn't it? The melody is a reprise of the old Red Hills of Home, isn't it Translated into English? It's here, israel, the Lord is our God. The Lord is one. Blessed be the name of his glorious kingdom forever and ever. And it's like a silent prayer that Leo sings right before he's hung by the lynch mob.
Speaker 2:Em, yeah, it's just, it's really beautiful and again it just shows the em about his strong faith right up until the very end, and that's where I knew Ben Platt and Michaela about his strong faith right up until the very end, and that's where. I knew Ben Platt and Michaela Diamond.
Speaker 1:They were the first Jewish actors and actresses to play those roles.
Speaker 2:And they felt that was very important for them and I know that during many of their performances there was lots of backlash, backlash and protests their first previews?
Speaker 1:didn't they have like protests?
Speaker 2:out the front of the and it's like come on, very difficult going back to our chat when we did jesus christ superstar.
Speaker 1:Like why is why are things like that still happening?
Speaker 1:like I know, so um yeah I think that prayer at the end also, like, highlights leo frank right to the end, leo's, frank's refusal to assimilate into the, this southern society, where he knows he's not part of it, he knows they don't want him to be part of it. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Which is another factor, I think, in the, the turning of the people of atlanta against him. It do you know what I mean? Which is another factor, I think, in the turning of the people of Atlanta against him. That's, you know that kind of like witch hunt against him. You know that anti-semitic kind of behaviour. Heavy it's, heavy it is heavy it is.
Speaker 2:But I think that that's how theatre is magic, where it can bring up a piece of history and make you learn more. Almost it like light, a little fire in you, and either want to make a difference or want to make sure that something like that doesn't happen again. And I think that if we can learn, you know, I think this is where I really struggle with people wanting to rewrite history. History happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and yes, it is mainly written by the heroes and survivors and things like that, but we need to learn from it and just make sure that we don't repeat.
Speaker 1:Thousand percent. But we can't forget what went, what happened, and actually it's important that musicals like this are made, because it does teach people that this did happen. You know I didn't know that this happened. You know I wouldn't have known about it, only I listened to it and I think it had the same impact on me.
Speaker 1:Obviously, I remember listening to it in Queen's Library when I'm supposed to be studying and I was just listening to the soundtrack from start to finish, the whole way through, and it had the same impact on me as seeing Ragtime.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and I will never forget.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:When I saw Ragtime I didn't know what I was going to see, but the stories are similar. We maybe won't go into it because it's probably a musical for another episode, but you know they, they're equally as powerful on the same kind of level of prejudice and you know those events of history and you can totally see why there's still issues today, because there's just such deep bedded nonsense that's gone on.
Speaker 2:I think when clearly there was a corrupt legal issue going on there and that then people felt that there wasn't injustice on there, and that then people felt that there wasn't injustice the fact that he was being moved and wasn't going to um be killed for what they believed he was guilty for.
Speaker 2:so they felt they had to take matters into his own hands their own hands, and that also, that people just didn't listen and just had their own agenda yeah um, but also you could understand why maybe people were frustrated, and people within the black community, if things like this were happening all the time to their children and nothing was being done about it. Then yeah, you just can't not ever making excuses for anything, but can see where frustrations and where people are led to acts.
Speaker 1:But the music.
Speaker 2:Beautiful.
Speaker 1:Isn't it, though? Yeah, like his, there's so many songs that are just so fantastic, like.
Speaker 2:I love it, just don't make sense yeah like that little melody is just a wee earworm just gets stuck in there and it's so sad.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So sad and it's just.
Speaker 1:I love all the wasted time, oh yeah, and I also love that it gives you like. It gives you bubbly feelings inside. This isn't over yet. Yeah, because it's when actually you you do think, oh, he's gonna get freed. Like this is gonna work out.
Speaker 2:you know, an innocent man is not going to go yeah to jail yeah I never was like my rabbi's eulogy can wait. You know my cousin will get his portion of my estate and he just goes through everything and he's just like at me. I've got somebody fighting for me, I'm somebody in my corner and it's my wife. How lucky am I for her. But to have her, but yeah it's a lot of learning in that musical but this is the thing.
Speaker 1:I went into a complete and utter rabbit hole when researching this because I started to look more at the actual trial and then from the lyrics she went oh my goodness, but that's Jason Robert Brown referring to this part of the trial. That's so clever, yeah. I'm so glad they made it yeah, and you know, in a way it's nice that Stephen Sondheim did turn it down, so Jason Robert Brown got an opportunity.
Speaker 2:I know, yeah, so good. Could you imagine it might have been very different?
Speaker 1:yeah, absolutely, because you kind of go Stephen Sondheim's treatment of this music. Do you know? He's so like, stephen Sondheim's, so clever. Like you go, what would he have done? Like, what would he have done? No, fantastic. Thank you for agreeing to do this one no worries it's honestly though you're totally okay.
Speaker 2:It's one of those ones, like you, do remember where you were the first time you heard it yeah and it was one of those ones that you listened to on repeat and I think that's something about parade is, now that I have been listening to it, a lot preparing for this, I think I I will put it aside for a while thousand percent and then, probably in a year, two years time, I'm going to come back to it and fall in love with it again, but I it's definitely not one that I could have every single song on because you get, it gets in there and you're like so sad yeah, did you like get more from it, having listened to it after a while of not?
Speaker 1:yeah, because I couldn't believe how much more kind of jumped out at me this time round, because it is a good five, six years, I think, since I've listened to it.
Speaker 2:I obviously listened to the um 2023 whenever it came out yes, just once.
Speaker 1:I just listened to it just exactly to hear their lovely voices. I just listened to it just to hear it, exactly to hear their lovely voices.
Speaker 2:And then maybe I've listened to Ben Platt singing. You know his. What were we just talking about there?
Speaker 1:That one, yes the one that, yeah, I can't remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for a while.
Speaker 1:This does, don't we but.
Speaker 2:I haven't from start to finish in ages.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2:But the last couple of weeks I've been, it has been in the ears, it's been in the car and I'm like okay, and I like it, and I have been humming some of them. But I'm ready to have a little break for a while and then rediscover it again.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I really hope people will discover it for the first time.
Speaker 1:Because that would be lovely to hear hear oh, please go and listen to it if you've never listened to Parade listen to the 2007 Dunmore Warehouse yeah cast recording and listen to it from start to finish, like yes, you know, start with the first song and work your way through.
Speaker 2:Yeah and have it on when you can pay full attention to it yeah, when you can pay full attention to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, oh, it was. I mean you say it's lovely, it's so ridiculously heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know for a fact, like if we went to see it in a theatre, we would be yeah, we would be absolutely in floods, absolute floods. Do you know? On a lighter note, do you know what's coming to the Donmore Warehouse early next year?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:The producers. Is it Uh-huh, uh-huh?
Speaker 2:Is that where that's going to be?
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, I know, I know it's pricked, my interest too.
Speaker 2:And do you know, like next week is the pre-release or early release of Hercules did you see who's just been cast?
Speaker 1:just today, they've announced who Hercules is going to be no, I've missed this, luke Brady. So he was Prince of Egypt. Yes, like best casting, that boy is amazing and his voice is incredible. Okay, I literally just read that before coming here to record this episode perfect, there you go, there we go we? How many times this season are we going to get back onto Bloom and Hercules?
Speaker 2:I mean, if we don't get to go and see this, we're not going to show anyway anyway, that was lovely. Yeah, we will be back next week with more beat. A wee, that was lovely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we will be back next week with more beet a wee bit lighter, a little bit more spice and a bit more beans and rice cha, cha, cha, yeah, yeah okay not lynchings, and you know mobs and hangings and all the rest of it. No, no, a little bit more a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for joining us and we will be back in your ears next week. Yeah, till then, bye.
